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Caliber thoughts

12K views 319 replies 53 participants last post by  clarkz71 
#1 ·
So reading here for the last month in general
.380 why bother with the sub compact 9’s available
9mm potentially not a gun for a man, better than it was but not enough...get SW 40.
Can’t do that most hate it too snappy...might as well go 45
45 is good but if your gonna go 45 might as well go 10.
Can’t do 10 too powerful for some.
Guess it’s back to .380
No shortage of opinions here
 
#178 ·
So reading here for the last month in general
.380 why bother with the sub compact 9’s available
9mm potentially not a gun for a man, better than it was but not enough...get SW 40.
Can’t do that most hate it too snappy...might as well go 45
45 is good but if your gonna go 45 might as well go 10.
Can’t do 10 too powerful for some.
Guess it’s back to .380
No shortage of opinions here
That's pretty much how the FBI does it but they ended up back at the nine. Your version is a lot more entertaining and a lot less tiresome to read.
 
#179 ·
After a lot of practice, I am just as accurate with my G29 as my G26. I have no doubt that the Underwood 10mm 180 grain bonded jacketed hollow point at 675 ft-lbs will change bad behavior more assuredly than the equivalent 9mm 125 grain +P+ at 460 ft-lbs, especially if there are drugs, size, or clothing issues.

Don’t know if this is common, but I shoot bigger bores enough that the 10mm seems more manageable.

That’s my story and I’m sticking to it.
 
#180 ·
After a lot of practice, I am just as accurate with my G29 as my G26. I have no doubt that the Underwood 10mm 180 grain bonded jacketed hollow point at 675 ft-lbs will change bad behavior more assuredly than the equivalent 9mm 125 grain +P+ at 460 ft-lbs, especially if there are drugs, size, or clothing issues.

Don’t know if this is common, but I shoot bigger bores enough that the 10mm seems more manageable.

That’s my story and I’m sticking to it.
I'll take note that you are yet another member of this forum who prefers terminal benefits of a larger caliber than 9mm -- even with a subcompact -- and can shoot it as accurately as shooting a G26.
 
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#192 ·
.45acp failure to stop:

"At the core of his desperate firefight was a murderous attacker who simply would not go down, even though he was shot 14 times with .45-cal. ammunition — six of those hits in supposedly fatal locations.

In this free-for-all, the assailant had, in fact, been struck 14 times. Any one of six of these wounds — in the heart, right lung, left lung, liver, diaphragm, and right kidney — could have produced fatal consequences…“in time,” Gramins emphasizes.

When the suspect bent down to peer under the car, Gramins carefully established a sight picture, and squeezed off three controlled bursts in rapid succession.

Each round slammed into the suspect’s head — one through each side of his mouth and one through the top of his skull into his brain. At long last the would-be cop killer crumpled to the pavement.

Before the shooting, Gramins routinely carried 47 rounds of handgun ammo on his person, including two extra magazines for his Glock 21 and 10 rounds loaded in a backup gun attached to his vest, a 9 mm Glock 26.

Now unfailingly he goes to work carrying 145 handgun rounds, all 9 mm.

https://www.policeone.com/police-he...ne-cop-carries-145-rounds-of-ammo-on-the-job/ "

"Lessons learned from facing an “invincible” assailant


Sgt. Timothy Gramins who fired 17 .45-cal. rounds into a hell-bent suspect before putting him down offers these lessons learned from his extraordinary fight for his life:

1.) Beef up your ammo reserves. “A lot more rounds are being exchanged in today’s gunfights than in the past. With offenders carrying heavier weapons, going on patrol with just a handgun and two extra magazines no longer cuts it. Carry more ammo. Always have a backup gun. Carry a loaded rifle where you can reach it. I can’t express how quickly your firearm will go empty when you’re shooting for real. There’s no worse feeling than pulling the trigger and hearing it go ‘click’.”

2.) Practice head shots. “When you fire multiple ‘lethal’ rounds into an attacker and he keeps going, you don’t have the luxury of waiting 20 or 40 more seconds for him to die while he can still shoot at you. Don’t waste time arguing the relative merits of various calibers. No handgun rounds have reliable stopping power with body shots. Pick the round you can shoot best and practice shooting at the suspect’s head.”

https://www.policeone.com/archive/a...-learned-from-facing-an-invincible-assailant/ "


.40 S&W Failure to Stop:

"Remarkably, Palmer had taken 22 hits from Soulis’ .40-caliber Glock, 17 of which had hit center mass. Despite the fact that the weapon had been loaded with Ranger SXTs considered by many to be one of the best man-stoppers available Palmer lived for more than four minutes after the last shot was fired. His autopsy revealed nothing more than a small amount of alcohol in his bloodstream. Although Soulis could not have known it, Palmer was wanted for murder in a neighboring state.

Resilience to Gunfire
Palmer took an astonishing 22 hits, seventeen of which were to center mass, before succumbing to his wounds, and Officer Soulis was shot four times without suffering any serious adverse effects on his performance. These facts point out why it is so vitally important to understand that bullets don’t always stop their target, even when they strike vital areas in large numbers. While we it is important to be confidence in our firearms and our proficiency in their use, we must accept the fact that they may not incapacitate an assailant as quickly as we would like. We must be prepared to keep shooting until the threat is terminated, move to another location, go for another weapon, or otherwise adapt.

http://lawofficer.com/exclusive/officer-down-the-peter-soulis-incident/ "



View: https://youtu.be/X1h9PYRZKMc



Again, if you are counting on .45acp or .40 S&W "stopping power"
to get you through poor marksmanship and poor to no training, you
are preparing to die.


It's pretty obvious that you have zero experience with law enforcement or law enforcement training.
Reading a book, gun magazines, and/or internet articles hardly makes you competent in these matters.
 
#200 ·
I carry a 380 sometimes , very rarely though. It’s used as a pocket gun when I have to make a quick trip to the gas station down the road and don’t feel like putting a belt and holster on. It’s better than nothing but I’m built tall and slim so I can’t pocket carry anything bigger or I would. Most of the time I carry a 9mm Shield and don’t feel under gunned with 9mm. I can shoot it quick and pretty accurate to 25 yards or so. I think being comfortable And getting proficient with it is more important than caliber.
 
#244 ·
What "straw-man arguments"? You stated that you rely on a few millimeters and grams because
you likely won't be able to hit a vital structure. I showed that .40 S&W and .45acp failed
to stop suspects despite numerous hits with these projectiles producing multiple examples
of extra millimeters and grams.
 
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#204 · (Edited)
Not by a significant margin. You are talking about a matter of a 1/10 of an inch between
9mm 147gr Federal HST and .40S&W 180gr HST. We've already eliminated .45acp from serious consideration.
OK, so you have "eliminated" .45 vs. 9mm perhaps because you have finally realized what I have been saying about relative tissue disruption, namely +60% or so in favor of .45. Congrats!




The officers/agents already using .40s switched to 9mm and as a group saw a significant
improvement in qualification scores, which means the 9mm pistols are more effective
for shot placement during combat. Remember, shot placement is one of the two vital components of effective terminal ballistics.
Fine, if they train with 9mm most probably will not make it with .40. However, it seems that you can't realize that there are quite a few, some in this forum actually, who shoot a more capable caliber just as well as they shoot a 9mm -- even out of a subcompact! Obviously, 9mm is it for you as far as your shooting ability -- copy that.

Aren't you in effect saying that .45acp has 40% more area(9mm has 60% of the .45acp's area) and therefore 40% more volume?
No, what I am saying is what I have been saying: .45 crushes about 60% more tissue (meaning tissue volume or weight as well) than 9mm does (suitably chosen rounds in both caliber).
It's trivial because it's a difference of a few mm's and a few grams of tissue. Look, people
get shot with shotguns, machine guns, and rifles and continue to fight. You should keep that
in mind when you calculate in mm's of extra surface areas. LOL!!!!
It's not just a few grams of tissue -- even per shot. Losing any tissue can be traumatic -- you never know when 30+ grams of more tissue disruption will persuade an attacker to call it quits. If I slap you on both cheeks, it may not be enough for you to cease and desist your attack. If I break both of your zygomatic arches with slaps -- you will likely reconsider further aggression. Neither case is physiologically incapacitating. But you like 9mm no matter what and -- as far as I'm concerned -- FANTASTIC!

Having much more ammunition and being able to make rapid, accurate follow up shots
is far more important in an actual gunfight.

If you are training to shoot someone until they bleed out, you are training to die.
The military and law enforcement train their personnel to shoot to stop aggressive
actions and the best way to do that is to aim for the heart, major blood vessels, and
of course the CNS. If you think that a few mm's of caliber is going to make up for
poor marksmanship and a lack of training, then you have learned nothing.
Get a .22 then (more capacity for you that you deem so important) if you don't count on "slow bleedout" -- just hit the CNS/heart/aorta that are so vital. Nothing to it, with some "gunfighters" here -- and you seem to be one of them as well. LOL.
I'm not speaking of subjective personal acceptability. I'm speaking of the FBI ammunition testing standard and the police service rounds that meet it.
It seems you are not able to interpret those tests in an objective matter -- after penetration, the next important wounding factor is the amount of tissue disruption, which even you realize it's not the same across calibers.
I've asked you for your specific autopsy information and you have produce nothing.
Sure, as a loyal 9mm adherent, evidence of "modern" 9mm JHPs penetrating less than 8 inches, and even just 5 inches, in just body soft-tissue is nothing. There's a lot more, but, I won't bother to try to shatter your illusions about 9mm effectiveness.

]As the video shows, the suspect was incapacitated in 1-2 seconds, while having PCP
in his system. That is a clear success.
Ok, if a "modern" 9mm JHP, RA9BA, penetrates less than 8 inches in a body soft-tissues is a "success" to you then 9mm can indeed be a "success."

]We aren't speaking of 9mm loads first developed in the 1980's. None the less, it
killed Trayvon Martin quickly. Where did you get your 5" data from? Post a link here.
RA9BA was developed in '80s? You sure like straw-man arguments and it's patently obvious why.
Nothing else?
No, because I don't want to disturb you ignorant bliss.

My turn then:

.40 S&W 180gr failure to stop:

"Assailant was shot 17 times with 11 rounds exiting body. • Incident lasted approximately 3.5 minutes. Facts • Six .40 S&W rounds, five which expanded, were recovered on autopsy. • It is impossible for .40 S&W 180 gr. JHP ammunition to expand with only 1 in. or less penetration in a human body. • After all .223 rounds had been fired, assailant was hit with 180 gr. Gold Dot in right arm above the elbow. • Officers had to “fight” assailant in order to get handcuffed

Lessons Learned
• Determined individuals can sustain many
gunshot wounds in areas that produce great
pain and continue to fight a long time, even
without the aid of drugs or alcohol.
Shot placement is everything in a gunfight
and always the key to stopping a threat
effectively


http://www.defensivecarry.com/documents/officer.pdf "
Stop the irrelevant nonsense. That shooting occurred through cars and under cars and were not direct hits. Yes, .40 cal will not defeat any barrier and penetrate 12+" into a body. I admit it. Look, if you like your 9mm terminal ballistics or you don't think it matters -- I get it. I will cease and desist in any efforts to show to you that 9mm is inadequate in any way. I promise, so don't worry be happy.
 
#205 ·
Rent all of the above at the local range. Run a bunch of rounds thought each and look at your targets.
Match the size of the holes of the targets with the best groups to the bullet size that made them and buy something in that caliber.

I like reading and sometimes contribution to caliber debate threads, but I don't let anyone else opinion dictate what I use.
 
#206 · (Edited)
Have you read my posts and read the articles detailing the failures of .40 S&W and .45acp
police service ammunition in combat? Why do you think they failed? Was it because
of a lack of energy????

How do people survive and fight on with rifle wounds with projectiles
having much more muzzle energy than 10mm, .40S&W, .45acp, or 44 mag?

Have you read the FBI papers on handgun wounding effectiveness?

Do you have any experience in law enforcement firearms training? Have you ever seen anyone shot?
Let me guess... you never went to college and if by some incredible improbability you actually did -- debating was not your major.
 
#207 ·
I get the impression that some are (rightfully) very proud of their service, hence consider their experiences worthier, even though it doesn't take a degree in anything worthwhile to understand that those real life events don't automatically equate to scientifically usable data, simply because to many variables eliminate any proper 'common denominator' and render any conclusion useless.

There's a reason why the FBI asked to develop a ballistics medium in order to make scientific evaluations. An expanding, to the max SAAMI pressure loaded 9mm round does not deliver the same kinetic energy into ANY medium, compared to the 10mm equivalent, or a bunch of other handgun calibers. The amount of energy dumped into the target make a huge difference in its effectiveness, and lethality.

To make my .500 Mag fun from early complete:

- Typical hot 9mm +p+ round: Muzzle Energy 465 ft / lbs
- Typical, regular S&W .500 round: Muzzle Energy: 2842 ft / lbs.

Yep, that's right. My .500 Mag snubby the size of a Glock 40 delivers 6.11 times the engery of a very hot +P+ 9mm. That's not just a HUGE difference, its an entirely different league.

I think some here should buy certified ballistics gel and test some 9 and 10mm rounds with comparable projectiles and loads, go strictly by FBI protocol, and measure the length and diameter of the temporary and permanent wound channels. Even if the 10mm wound channel is only 1 inch wider, this - obviously - covers a much larger area, and in turns affects more tissue / organs / you name it.

I wrote a longer post to this regard somewhere in these nonsense caliber threads, but I'm not even going to link it again. At this point it's just an ego battle.
By QED's beloved Dr. Fackler, temporary wound cavity doesn't matter. His reasoning was it is a cavity, nothing is there. If nothing is there, what can be damaged?



Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk
 
#208 ·
Straw-man argument. Neither Fackler, a respected wound trauma expert, nor I believe that temporary cavity doesn't matter -- any more than that caliber doesn't matter. Incidentally, I disagree with Fackler about a number of things -- but when he is right I give him credit.
 
#210 ·
Permanent wound channel volume by caliber, based on MOMENTUM.

9mm: 2.2 to 5.5, simplified average: 3.85
.45 ACP: 3.6 to 8, , simplified average: 5.80

The .45 ACP archives around a 50.6% larger, permanent wound channel.

I know... that's nothing... :animlol:

You can get a better correlation to wound volume by replacing momentum (mv) by mv(exp.6). However, this is good enough to make the "point."
 
#213 ·
Your average .223 only produces around 1300 ft / lbs of muzzle energy. That's not even half of a potent .500 Mag round.

And don't get me started on ARs from Colt! Glorified and outdated. Now a .357 Python on the other hand.. any time.
Actually, when I saw this post on a .500 revolver for self-defense, I thought it was a joke. Now that I thought about it, it must be a joke. What would be recovery time for a second shot? Multiple assailant's would be handled how? Scared away by the muzzle blast, perhaps? Again, a self-defense pistol isn't a rifle. I don't see the point of trying to duplicate the performance of one. As far as the AR goes, I would pick one any day of the week over a snub nosed monstrosity that MIGHT be good for the first shot out to fifty feet.
 
#218 ·
#245 ·
OK, so you have "eliminated" .45 vs. 9mm perhaps because you have finally realized what I have been saying about relative tissue disruption, namely +60% or so in favor of .45. Congrats!





Fine, if they train with 9mm most probably will not make it with .40. However, it seems that you can't realize that there are quite a few, some in this forum actually, who shoot a more capable caliber just as well as they shoot a 9mm -- even out of a subcompact! Obviously, 9mm is it for you as far as your shooting ability -- copy that.


No, what I am saying is what I have been saying: .45 crushes about 60% more tissue (meaning tissue volume or weight as well) than 9mm does (suitably chosen rounds in both caliber).

It's not just a few grams of tissue -- even per shot. Losing any tissue can be traumatic -- you never know when 30+ grams of more tissue disruption will persuade an attacker to call it quits. If I slap you on both cheeks, it may not be enough for you to cease and desist your attack. If I break both of your zygomatic arches with slaps -- you will likely reconsider further aggression. Neither case is physiologically incapacitating. But you like 9mm no matter what and -- as far as I'm concerned -- FANTASTIC!


Get a .22 then (more capacity for you that you deem so important) if you don't count on "slow bleedout" -- just hit the CNS/heart/aorta that are so vital. Nothing to it, with some "gunfighters" here -- and you seem to be one of them as well. LOL.

It seems you are not able to interpret those tests in an objective matter -- after penetration, the next important wounding factor is the amount of tissue disruption, which even you realize it's not the same across calibers.

Sure, as a loyal 9mm adherent, evidence of "modern" 9mm JHPs penetrating less than 8 inches, and even just 5 inches, in just body soft-tissue is nothing. There's a lot more, but, I won't bother to try to shatter your illusions about 9mm effectiveness.


Ok, if a "modern" 9mm JHP, RA9BA, penetrates less than 8 inches in a body soft-tissues is a "success" to you then 9mm can indeed be a "success."


RA9BA was developed in '80s? You sure like straw-man arguments and it's patently obvious why.


No, because I don't want to disturb you ignorant bliss.


Stop the irrelevant nonsense. That shooting occurred through cars and under cars and were not direct hits. Yes, .40 cal will not defeat any barrier and penetrate 12+" into a body. I admit it. Look, if you like your 9mm terminal ballistics or you don't think it matters -- I get it. I will cease and desist in any efforts to show to you that 9mm is inadequate in any way. I promise, so don't worry be happy.

A QED falsehood. I eliminated .45acp because the limited amount of ammunition an officer
can carry compared to 9mm is not worth a few extra millimeters and grams.

You missed that fact that they already trained with .40 and they did better with the new 9mm pistols. I know that hurts, but it is true. A 9mm hit disrupts far more tissue than a .40 that misses. Besides, 9mm and .40 service ammunition are both designed to adhere to FBI ammunition testing standards.

Can you show us your formula and work?

Persuade? That is a psychological stop. You are suggesting that a few millimeters and grams "persuades" a suspect to stop fighting? What if, he decides not to stop as was the case in the examples that I provided?

Hypothetically, if a slap-frenzied man were to break both zygomatic arches of a victim with slaps, the victim may decide that the slapper is a deadly force threat and just kill the attacker with personal weapons. He probably shouldn't though because I think it would be hard to justify to a jury beating a man who slap-fights to death. A swirly would be more appropriate.


I'll stick with the 9mm because it is excellent at meeting the FBI testing standards, while
offering the tactical advantages as I have already explained.

As I have shown, the few millimeters and grams are not equal to improved qualification
scores, quicker follow up shots, and increased ammunition carried in the pistol and on the
person. Rather than hpoing that non-vital hits convince a suspect to stop, hitting the
vital structures is the key to stopping aggression. You simply cannot miss enough to
save yourself. If you lack confidence, then I suggest that you seek out realistic training.

I asked for specific autopsy information regarding the 8" claim and you have produced
zero evidence. The video speaks for itself. The armed suspect on PCP was stopped by 9mm
hits in 1-2 seconds.

Another QED falsehood. Trayvon Martin was not killed with RA9BA.
I asked for evidence of a 5" as you claimed and you have produced nothing.

I guess you are out of examples. That's a good thing because they didn't stand up to scrutiny.

Yet more QED falsehoods. You have no idea which hits were through a barrier and which were not.
 
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#255 ·
A QED falsehood. I eliminated .45acp because the limited amount of ammunition an officer
can carry compared to 9mm is not worth a few extra millimeters and grams.

You missed that fact that they already trained with .40 and they did better with the new 9mm pistols. I know that hurts, but it is true. A 9mm hit disrupts far more tissue than a .40 that misses. Besides, 9mm and .40 service ammunition are both designed to adhere to FBI ammunition testing standards.

Can you show us your formula and work?

Persuade? That is a psychological stop. You are suggesting that a few millimeters and grams "persuades" a suspect to stop fighting? What if, he decides not to stop as was the case in the examples that I provided?

Hypothetically, if a slap-frenzied man were to break both zygomatic arches of a victim with slaps, the victim may decide that the slapper is a deadly force threat and just kill the attacker with personal weapons. He probably shouldn't though because I think it would be hard to justify to a jury beating a man who slap-fights to death. A swirly would be more appropriate.


I'll stick with the 9mm because it is excellent at meeting the FBI testing standards, while
offering the tactical advantages as I have already explained.

As I have shown, the few millimeters and grams are not equal to improved qualification
scores, quicker follow up shots, and increased ammunition carried in the pistol and on the
person. Rather than hpoing that non-vital hits convince a suspect to stop, hitting the
vital structures is the key to stopping aggression. You simply cannot miss enough to
save yourself. If you lack confidence, then I suggest that you seek out realistic training.

I asked for specific autopsy information regarding the 8" claim and you have produced
zero evidence. The video speaks for itself. The armed suspect on PCP was stopped by 9mm
hits in 1-2 seconds.

Another QED falsehood. Trayvon Martin was not killed with RA9BA.
I asked for evidence of a 5" as you claimed and you have produced nothing.

I guess you are out of examples. That's a good thing because they didn't stand up to scrutiny.

Yet more QED falsehoods. You have no idea which hits were through a barrier and which were not.
Your persistent straw-man arguments and lack of basic understanding make it senseless to continue attempting to have a meaningful "debate" with you. Google is your friend, find the autopsies like I did and if you finished high-school you would probably have sufficient education background to verify my statements. Relevant 9mm JHP/s penetrated 5" direct soft-tissue penetration in Florida case, less than 8" in Chicago case. NO BARRIERS WERE INVOLVED! That's just a couple of such examples of 9mm inadequacy.
I am surely not going to start from scratch teaching you the basics of terminal ballistics/wound ballistics or how to measure or calculate distances between points in an autopsied body, or........so many other basics. I did not say that the Florida shooting involved RA9BA -- you made this straw-man up. All of the .40 cal hits were through/under cars -- it's beyond obvious. Even 9mm penetrates more than 1" in body soft-tissue without barriers! If you are interested in further discussion about that case go to pistol_forum; a few years ago it was established there that those .40 cal hits were not direct. Hardly a surprise (except perhaps to you)! There is more posted nonsense from you, but there is no point to address all of it. Don Glock26, enjoy your 9mm and feel free to believe whatever you wish about its terminal adequacy or equivalency to anything else! I'm fine with it! LOL.
 
#246 ·
Let me guess... you never went to college and if by some incredible improbability you actually did -- debating was not your major.
Passive/aggressive personal attacks now?
 
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#247 ·
Straw-man argument. Neither Fackler, a respected wound trauma expert, nor I believe that temporary cavity doesn't matter -- any more than that caliber doesn't matter. Incidentally, I disagree with Fackler about a number of things -- but when he is right I give him credit.
Do you have an actual quote of Dr Fackler to that effect?
 
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#248 ·
You don't even know the beliefs of your own beloved.........

Start at about the 13 minute mark and Dr. Fackler starts at about the 15 minute or so mark. He explains why temporary cavitation doesn't matter, on camera, in his own words, out of his own mouth for you to see.



View: https://youtu.be/5AhcuLWIe3A


Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk

There you go, right from Dr Fackler's own mouth. The temp. stretch cavities of service handgun projectiles do not damage most body structures.
 
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#249 ·
Beloved? Are you some kind of a sentimentalist? I'll even believe you -- when, or rather if, you are right. I'm actually not aware that Fackler ever said that TC doesn't matter --- except from low-energy handguns, that is. He was much more impressed with TC from rifles, of course. BTW, if you dismiss Fackler, dismiss whatever FBI's Patrick wrote -- Patrick, as experienced firearms guy as he was, learned terminal ballistics (particularly wound trauma) from Fackler.
What does Dr. Fackler say about handgun TSC's in the video? Did you view his interview?
 
#250 ·
#251 ·
What "straw-man arguments"? You stated that you rely on a few millimeters and grams because
you likely won't be able to hit a vital structure. I showed that .40 S&W and .45acp failed
to stop suspects despite numerous hits with these projectiles producing multiple examples
of extra millimeters and grams.
Your argumentative skill is obviously to try to wear down who you are debating by straw-man arguments and irrelevant facts. I have point out to you 2 cases, with autopsies available online somewhere, DIRECT 9MM JHP HITS, where currently used 9mm JHPs penetrated woefully inadequately. You, in return, pointed out 1 case where .40 cal did not perform well -- due the fact that the .40 cal bullets had to go through cars/under cars before impacting the body. I have no interest in this kind "debate." Undoubtedly, in your mind, you have proven to yourself that 9mm is as good as -- whatever. Hey, that's fine by me -- enjoy it.
 
#256 ·
Your argumentative skill is obviously to try to wear down who you are debating by straw-man arguments and irrelevant facts. I have point out to you 2 cases, with autopsies available online somewhere, DIRECT 9MM JHP HITS, where currently used 9mm JHPs penetrated woefully inadequately. You, in return, pointed out 1 case where .40 cal did not perform well -- due the fact that the .40 cal bullets had to go through cars/under cars before impacting the body. I have no interest in this kind "debate." Undoubtedly, in your mind, you have proven to yourself that 9mm is as good as -- whatever. Hey, that's fine by me -- enjoy it.
You can't produce the autopsy reports, so your claims of specific inches of penetration is
suspect. In the Chicago case, an armed suspect on PCP with a knife was dropped with 9mm
bullets in 1-2 seconds. You claim this is a failure. Hilarious!!

The second shooting was the Trayvon Martin shooting with an outdated non-police service round. That's irrelevant and absurd as are your arguments.

I pointed out two .40 S&W failure to stops and one .45acp failure to stop. You and Crockett have been unable to directly discuss these failures.
 
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