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Is the 10mm auto worth it?

21K views 172 replies 67 participants last post by  Americanpatriot 
#1 ·
Been thinking lately about getting into the 10mm as a trail gun, backup hunting gun, etc. but the more and more I think about it, I wonder if there's anything I can do with the 10mm that I can't do with a heavy 45acp+p or hot 40s&w if I'm sticking to a semi, or a 357mag in a revolver.

I have to do some more thinking and research to see if I am going to get into reloading, but let's assume for now, I won't be reloading, so ammo scarcity and price will affect this decision.

If I can't do what I want (trail gun, backup hunting gun, or even handgun hunting) with a heavy 45acp+p, hot 40sw or a 357mag, will I be that much better off with a 10mm?

For reference, all rounds will be in the heaviest hard cast available for the caliber and pushed basically to their safe limits in terms of velocity, if that helps

Thanks,
Nick
 
#92 ·
Yes! 10mm is worth it! The performance is awesome. My Glock 29 is my EDC and since I live where there are no silly mag restrictions I added a Pearce +2 mag extension so I carry 12+1...

Pearce +2 extension for the Glock 29? Where did you buy it from?
 
#101 · (Edited)
what is an AM LW conversion barrel?
After-market. Lone Wolf (Distributors) is the mnfr.

But is the 10 'worth it'? Depends on what motivates you. The ammo runs mild-to-wild - a versatile cartridge alright. When wanted, it's nice to have that upper end of power and selection of projectiles - the right tool for the right job. And 10-15 rnds should be ample to see you through most any day on the streets or in the hills.

10mm Auto has really enjoyed a resurgence in recent years. Quite a few very good semiautos and revolvers on the market. Ruger's on the bandwagon - they just recently released their first-ever 10mm in a revolver, the Super Redhawk (a svelte 54 oz). Better late than never. I digress.
 
#100 ·
The Danish issue their Arctic Patrol Glock G-20s because in that environment troopers my happen upon (or being stalked by) what I've read are the world's largest carnivorous land animal, the polar bear.

In your state I think you've got all the firepower options you need in the pistols you already own.
This is so misunderstood. The Danish do not issue the G20 as def against bears. It is their duty weapon which may be called upon to be used against a bear, two diff things. They get 30cal rifles for bear protection. The 10mm is the heaviest hitting semi the avg shooter can effectively fight with in a gunfight. It can be pushed to it's limits against large carnivores, but not ideal.
 
#105 ·
Wow, there's a really great posts here about the 10 mm. I have a Glock 20 with a six-inch lone Wolf barrel with 2 compensation slots on the end. Effectively this is a 5 inch barrel.
I reload my own using 180 grain HAP, 800X, with a muzzle velocity of 1320 FPS. Muzzle energy at 10 ft is 696 foot-pounds, and at 50 yds is 570 with a BC of .164. That's a 20 % loss in 50 yds.
In the woods I carry one in the chamber and 14 in the clip.
I live out here in Colorado & there are 2 things I haven't seen mentioned so far deal with the state regulations about big game hunting. I don't know what they are the other states but here in Colorado there are 2 particular regulations that affect the handgun shooter. The first --- 7. HANDGUNS a. Barrel must be a minimum of 4 inches long. b. Must use a minimum .24-caliber (6 mm) in diameter expanding bullet. c. Shoulder stocks or attachments prohibited. d. Must use a cartridge or load that produces minimum energy of 550-ft.-pounds at 50 yards as rated by manufacturer .
The 2nd --- (My summary of Colorado CPW words From the big game hunting brochure)... It is illegal to shoot an Big Game animal in any condition, including one needing a finishing shot, even if that animal is laying down on the ground in front of you, with a firearm that does not meet, (For a handgun), the parameters above listed.
My only difficulty here is trying to prove to a Game Warden that my hand loads meet the 550 foot-pound 50 yard requirement. So I label the cartridge box carefully, and bring a Hornady reloading manual with me in the truck, and copies of my chronograph readings, and ballistic print out for that load. Buffalo Bore, Double Tap, Grizzly, and Underwood offer a variety of loads with 700 or more ft-lbs of energy.

If you carry a less powerful handgun in the field during big game seasons you had better never say it's a backup gun for a finishing shot. The only reason you be allowed to carry that gun Is to defend yourself against rabid skunks both four-legged and two–legged. Just remember, you probably need a small game license for four-legged skunks.
 
#108 ·
Wow, there's a really great posts here about the 10 mm. I have a Glock 20 with a six-inch lone Wolf barrel with 2 compensation slots on the end. Effectively this is a 5 inch barrel.
I reload my own using 180 grain HAP, 800X, with a muzzle velocity of 1320 FPS. Muzzle energy at 10 ft is 696 foot-pounds, and at 50 yds is 570 with a BC of .164. That's a 20 % loss in 50 yds.
In the woods I carry one in the chamber and 14 in the clip.
I live out here in Colorado & there are 2 things I haven't seen mentioned so far deal with the state regulations about big game hunting. I don't know what they are the other states but here in Colorado there are 2 particular regulations that affect the handgun shooter. The first --- 7. HANDGUNS a. Barrel must be a minimum of 4 inches long. b. Must use a minimum .24-caliber (6 mm) in diameter expanding bullet. c. Shoulder stocks or attachments prohibited. d. Must use a cartridge or load that produces minimum energy of 550-ft.-pounds at 50 yards as rated by manufacturer .
The 2nd --- (My summary of Colorado CPW words From the big game hunting brochure)... It is illegal to shoot an Big Game animal in any condition, including one needing a finishing shot, even if that animal is laying down on the ground in front of you, with a firearm that does not meet, (For a handgun), the parameters above listed.
My only difficulty here is trying to prove to a Game Warden that my hand loads meet the 550 foot-pound 50 yard requirement. So I label the cartridge box carefully, and bring a Hornady reloading manual with me in the truck, and copies of my chronograph readings, and ballistic print out for that load. Buffalo Bore, Double Tap, Grizzly, and Underwood offer a variety of loads with 700 or more ft-lbs of energy.

If you carry a less powerful handgun in the field during big game seasons you had better never say it's a backup gun for a finishing shot. The only reason you be allowed to carry that gun Is to defend yourself against rabid skunks both four-legged and two–legged. Just remember, you probably need a small game license for four-legged skunks.
There are so e real turd game wardens in CO. If you have your ccw, then you should be good. If you have a varmint lic, you should be good.
 
#106 ·
Get what ever you want. How can any one take threads like this seriously? How could I or any one else possibly have the slightest idea what is "worth it" to you or not?
 
#109 ·
I’m a wheel gun fan when it comes to big game hunting and I typically always had a S&W 629 Hunter 44mag on my hip when in the woods, but since I discovered the power of the 10mm along with the additional capacity, I now pack a G20sf. 16 rounds vs 6 rounds... easy math. I don’t have brown bears in my hunting woods but a big black bear is always a possibility.
 
#110 ·
IF carrying a rifle in bear country, the weight of the handgun seems pointless. Then again, around camp, nice to always be armed. The heavy rifle or 12ga does little good leaning against a tree 20ft away when yogi drops by.
 
#112 ·



Comparison at SAAMI max pressure level with identical barrel length and projectile weight

The 10mm offers 33.48% more Projectile Energy compared to the .45 ACP.
The 10mm offers 36.11% more Projectile Energy compared to the .357 Mag.


+P Evaluation
SAAMI has no 10mm +P standard defined. If we load a 200gr 10mm round to 1250 FPS out of a 5.00" barrel, the maximum pressure will be 41.815 PSI, which is sustainable in most 10mm handguns and a typical "hot load".

In order to archive the same velocity of 1,250 FPS out of a 5.00" barrel with a 200gr projectile in a .45 ACP, the pressure would have to be 31,268 PSI, which is 8,268 PSI over the +P max pressure of 23,000 PSI.

The .357 Mag would be at 53,126 PSI, which is 18,126 PSI over the SAAMI max pressure. The .357 Mag also has no +P standard defined.

To answer your question: yes, the 10mm caliber is worth it, especially as a hunting and woods platform, and even more so when uploaded to top performance.
Also, you have to keep in mind that the stats were produced using a specific firearm. Different guns equal different stats.
 
#113 ·
Enjoyed reading your message about the 10mm. I just got a G20 and like shooting it very much. Thinking about carrying it in the woods, hunting, hikes, etc. Any suggestions on a comfortable carry holster?
Wow, there's a really great posts here about the 10 mm. I have a Glock 20 with a six-inch lone Wolf barrel with 2 compensation slots on the end. Effectively this is a 5 inch barrel.
I reload my own using 180 grain HAP, 800X, with a muzzle velocity of 1320 FPS. Muzzle energy at 10 ft is 696 foot-pounds, and at 50 yds is 570 with a BC of .164. That's a 20 % loss in 50 yds.
In the woods I carry one in the chamber and 14 in the clip.
I live out here in Colorado & there are 2 things I haven't seen mentioned so far deal with the state regulations about big game hunting. I don't know what they are the other states but here in Colorado there are 2 particular regulations that affect the handgun shooter. The first --- 7. HANDGUNS a. Barrel must be a minimum of 4 inches long. b. Must use a minimum .24-caliber (6 mm) in diameter expanding bullet. c. Shoulder stocks or attachments prohibited. d. Must use a cartridge or load that produces minimum energy of 550-ft.-pounds at 50 yards as rated by manufacturer .
The 2nd --- (My summary of Colorado CPW words From the big game hunting brochure)... It is illegal to shoot an Big Game animal in any condition, including one needing a finishing shot, even if that animal is laying down on the ground in front of you, with a firearm that does not meet, (For a handgun), the parameters above listed.
My only difficulty here is trying to prove to a Game Warden that my hand loads meet the 550 foot-pound 50 yard requirement. So I label the cartridge box carefully, and bring a Hornady reloading manual with me in the truck, and copies of my chronograph readings, and ballistic print out for that load. Buffalo Bore, Double Tap, Grizzly, and Underwood offer a variety of loads with 700 or more ft-lbs of energy.

If you carry a less powerful handgun in the field during big game seasons you had better never say it's a backup gun for a finishing shot. The only reason you be allowed to carry that gun Is to defend yourself against rabid skunks both four-legged and two–legged. Just remember, you probably need a small game license for four-legged skunks.
 
#114 ·
Many good post here......

O.P, if you already have a 45 cal. Glock IMO you have the best platform to build THE best auto handgun for woods carry.

As you and others have mentioned even factory loaded 45 Super loads are capable of doing what you have said you need from your woods gun with very few mods and $.

Any one that has used a handgun (or any gun)for hunting should know a heavier projectile will penetrate further than a lighter one at equal or less velocity all else being equal.
Also should know a larger diameter projectile has greater kill speed even at less velocity ,again all things equal such as bullet design.

If you do not reload and don't plan to ,the most power and kill speed will come from a 460 Rowland barrel , in a Glock platform.

As to bullet for your intended purpose you stated, "Black bear and Mt.Lion ",
require different bullet design for best results. Large bear require deep penetration and wound channel for best result = wide Meplat hard cast at good velocity to keep displacement volume high for good wound channel.

Mt. Lion = widest wound channel with good penetration but not nearly as much as a bear as they are not 3-400 lbs or as heavily boned.

My gun/load I would carry in your situation would be a 215 gr. WFN bullet (my design) at 1400+fps, THIS FROM A GUN MODIFIED FOR ROWLAND LEVEL LOADS DO NOT TRY TO REPLICATE UNLESS YOU HAVE THESE MODIFICATIONS!!! This bullet would be fast enough with its .38 Meplat to create a large wound channel and still penetrate more than needed for most things being a hard cast bullet.

Point being, WFN design and light enough to push fast enough to create a large wound track is what is needed IMO.

As to your question ,if factory 45 Super ammo is capable......
When I first started modifying 45 ACP's for hotter loads several years ago, I shot the largest Whitetail deer I have ever seen with a 260 gr hard cast bullet @ 1070 fps 10 ft from muzzle.
Shot was almost head on slightly quartering towards me from 49 yds.
Bullet broke front shoulder, passed through vitals and came out back of rear leg well over 3 ft of penetration.
Probably would have went through another deer as well.
This is something a 300 gr XTP from 7.5" 44 mag failed to do (maybe half the penetration) on a smaller buck/similar shot.

If you have not seen the 45 Super thread here on G.T. in the reloading section you might find it interesting.
 
#117 ·
Been thinking lately about getting into the 10mm as a trail gun, backup hunting gun, etc. but the more and more I think about it, I wonder if there's anything I can do with the 10mm that I can't do with a heavy 45acp+p or hot 40s&w if I'm sticking to a semi, or a 357mag in a revolver.

I have to do some more thinking and research to see if I am going to get into reloading, but let's assume for now, I won't be reloading, so ammo scarcity and price will affect this decision.

If I can't do what I want (trail gun, backup hunting gun, or even handgun hunting) with a heavy 45acp+p, hot 40sw or a 357mag, will I be that much better off with a 10mm?

For reference, all rounds will be in the heaviest hard cast available for the caliber and pushed basically to their safe limits in terms of velocity, if that helps

Thanks,
Nick
Max SAAMI pressure values do not care for powder selection or when spikes occur. The max pressure entails any spike and is just that, a standard defined by SAAMI, which is used by firearm manufacturers when they develop their guns.

Those numbers posted are based on physics and the formulas have been developed by one of the most accredited ballistic research centers in the US. The data is accurate.

PS: what I have posted is not a random image, it is an Excel file that includes those formulas and is - obviously - dynamic, hence I can change the parameters and get either FPS or PSI in return.
Fair enough, let's test your Excel file...please test a .357 caliber 125gr XTP @1500fps in both .38 Super and .357mag?
 
#119 ·
Max SAAMI pressure values do not care for powder selection or when spikes occur. The max pressure entails any spike and is just that, a standard defined by SAAMI, which is used by firearm manufacturers when they develop their guns.

Those numbers posted are based on physics and the formulas have been developed by one of the most accredited ballistic research centers in the US. The data is accurate.

PS: what I have posted is not a random image, it is an Excel file that includes those formulas and is - obviously - dynamic, hence I can change the parameters and get either FPS or PSI in return.
Can you try plugging in data for a 40 S&W (35,000 psi) with the same 200 grain bullet as the 10mm loading? I will bet it will show 580 ft-lbs of energy. With lighter bullets and both loaded to SAAMI specs I think the 40 is much closer to 10mm power levels than many 10mm fans like to admit. But with heavy bullets the bigger case of the 10 helps it pull further ahead of the 40.

I don't see an entry for cartridge length and with heavy bullets in short cases that does make a difference. In reality you cannot cram enough slow burning powder into the case of a 40 to get the most out of 200 grain bullets which gives the 10mm a bigger advantage with heavy bullets than a spreadsheet will suggest.
 
#122 ·
The max pressure will be the same since the velocity doesn't change, assuming the same barrel length and load.

With a 6" barrel the max pressure will be 39,845 psi, Projectile Energy will be 624 ft-lbs.
Are you a handloader, if so, what hard copies do you use for reference?

What your data doesn't account for is case volume and the different types and burn rates of powder used. These two calibers can't use the same load to reach 1500fps, but they can both be loaded to 1500fps in 5" barrels and be under SAAMI max psi. In case of the .38 Super, using a neutral powder N105, chamber pressure is <33,350 psi. Using Remington +P brass, the case will not physically hold enough N105 powder to reach your posted 39,845 psi. In using a neutral powder compared to a degressive powder, the neutral powder burn will have a lower peak pressure and continue to have a higher bore pressure. In contrast, degressive powders will have a higher spike psi and lower bore pressure to achieve the same velocity, but may be over SAAMI peak pressure to achieve the same velocity.

Using published data, I've loaded S&W .357mag/125gr/6" to ~1635fps and kept operating pressure <35,000psi. Slower burning powder.

In order to reach 39,845 psi/6"/1500fps, a very fast burning powder would need to be used...at 39,845psi, there will be some stuck casings in .357mag chambers.

It's apparent that your input data is flawed because there are other factors that determine MV under SAAMI peak pressures. For the handloader, published handloading manuals use SAAMI data for each powder/bullet/caliber entry. Again, using the .357mag as an example, some powders will reach SAAMI peak pressure (35,000psi) and attain an MV under 1500fps from a 6" barrel. Some powders can reach SAAMI peak pressure, but have muzzle velocities in excess of 1500fps, in some combinations much faster, from a 6" barrel. Many handloaders use velocity goals within SAAMI specs (some overshoot the specs) and are not confined to 1500fps/6" velocities.

For the spreadsheet to be valid for handloaders, each powder would need to be entered that reach SAAMI peak pressures and at what velocities can be predicted for each barrel length. But many handloaders also use chronographs in addition to published data, that yield velocities for each given firearm.

As previously stated, the posted pressure data is of little use for many handloaders who load different powders for velocity and accuracy goals, while staying under SAAMI peak pressure.
 
#142 ·
One question about your terminology. You speak of "regressive" powders and "neutral" powders. How does this relate to burn rate? by regressive do you mean slow burning powders? And by "Neutral" do you mean Medium burn rate powders?

With the case capacity relative to the bore diameter and bullet weights most common to the 10mm, burn rates vary from medium burn rate powders such as Unique which is a relatively fast burning powder for the 10mm, to AA9 which is about the slowest powder used in the 10mm.

In-between might be 800x, which is still faster that AA7 and Blue dot but is not what I would consider to be a "neutral" burn rate powder.

Additionally, if a slow burn rate powder is considered "Regressive" are faster burning powders then considered to be Progressive?

I've never heard these terms used before. Otherwise I appreciate your concern for wanting to stay below SAAMI peak pressures. There are some here who disregard such concerns and that's always troubled me since without actual pressure testing equipment it's impossible to know just how far over peak pressure any load is.
 
#125 ·
I don't understand what your interring all the data in but
could you do it with the 180gr with the 40 and 10mm.

We do have data that is fully pressure tested and also shot
in many different barrel lengths to check it.

I have done a little experimenting with the two, if both have
the same barrel length there is not that much difference.

Have six inch barrels for both and others, mostly LW barrels.

With 180gr the difference at max PSI is 43 FPS, same 5" barrel length,. Projectile Energy stays obviously the same compared to 200gr.
 
#127 ·
Easy answer, published data by VihtaVuori....N105 is a VihtaVuori powder, load data is available online...N105 is also a great powder for 44mag/200gr XTP as researched by Hornady...this data is easily available to the handloader....Again

Are you a handloader, if so, what references do you use???

You may want to buy the hardcover VihtaVuori handloading manual, there's a great article about the differences between degressive and neutral powders. :)
 
#129 ·
I'm in camp that says the 10mm is largely not worth the effort. Yes it's a good cartridge that can offer some pretty good ballistics, but at the same time I don't think the ballistics are so much better than "max potential" .40 S&W or .45 ACP to justify buying a gun chambered in 10mm as long as you reload, otherwise then maybe 10mm is the way to go because you can get hotter 10mm than you can just about anything else, which is primarily marketing.

If you want the most out of anything, RELOAD for it and even then the 10mm isn't the king in Glocks, that's reserved or the .45 Super/460 Rowland. As bad as some disagree with me here, the 10mm really isn't that much better than a warm .40 S&W, the reason people think it's way better is they're comparing a warm 10mm to a standard .40. My personal opinion is that what little "advantage" the 10mm holds over the .40 isn't worth the cost of getting fully into the 10mm, not by a wide margin.
 
#130 ·
I'm in camp that says the 10mm is largely not worth the effort. Yes it's a good cartridge that can offer some pretty good ballistics, but at the same time I don't think the ballistics are so much better than "max potential" .40 S&W or .45 ACP to justify buying a gun chambered in 10mm as long as you reload, otherwise then maybe 10mm is the way to go because you can get hotter 10mm than you can just about anything else, which is primarily marketing.

If you want the most out of anything, RELOAD for it and even then the 10mm isn't the king in Glocks, that's reserved or the .45 Super/460 Rowland. As bad as some disagree with me here, the 10mm really isn't that much better than a warm .40 S&W, the reason people think it's way better is they're comparing a warm 10mm to a standard .40. My personal opinion is that what little "advantage" the 10mm holds over the .40 isn't worth the cost of getting fully into the 10mm, not by a wide margin.

The ten was first around (pun intended), the .40 S&W is the weak placenta and the compromise between the 10 and the 9. If there is one round out of that bunch that we don't need anymore, its the .40 S&W.
 
#133 · (Edited)
Why should I link to a pdf version when I have the hardcover version with the articles previously mentioned?

All these VV powders and you don't own the hardcover manual??? Discontinued or sold out in the English version?
It does have a much better bullet brand selection than Hornady, Speer, Sierra and Nosler etc....and there are various lead bullet loading data.

Yet you criticize what you haven't read....oh well...

Do you really want to get into a whizzing contest as to powder inventory? :)

For those interested in bullet weight/chamber pressure/specific powder/MV comparisons, the current Western Powder online manual can be downloaded...and that should bring a halt to this back and forth boring conversation. :)


I'm well past paperweight manuals, I use a database on my reloading computer that includes the data from most manuals and most bullet as well as powder manufacturers, plus thousands of uploads from handloaders.

You do understand that the Maximum Probable Sample Mean (MPSM) in actual pressure measurements alone entails often higher deviation with the exact same loads than the variation you can read in the WP manual? That's why I asked you if you ever did any testing yourself on handgun loads.

Page 21: http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/publications/download/206.pdf

Also, you stated yourself that "In using a neutral powder compared to a degressive powder, the neutral powder burn will have a lower peak pressure and continue to have a higher bore pressure.", but SAAMI defines the max CHAMBER pressure only, because that part is most vulnerable to material failure, foremost the case itself.

"SAAMI recognizes two pressure-measuring systems. The preferred system is the piezoelectric transducer system with the transducer flush-mounted in the chamber of the test barrel. Pressure developed by the burning propellant exerts force on the transducer through the cartridge case wall causing the transducer to deflect, creating a measurable electric charge. Pressures measured with this system are expressed in units of "pounds per square inch" (abbreviated psi)."

You keep going by your 3rd party manuals... I stick to the root source defined by SAAMI, my own uploads and my own calculations.
 
#138 ·
if you had read some of the articles in those dead paperweights you would realize that there is more than peak pressure that causes MVs....thank you for validating SAAMI peak pressure measurements.

Some internet genius believes his own handloading data is better than data collected by full time ballistic engineers who design small arms and ordnance powders....easy decision for me to pick a third party manual over a ..... :)
 
#134 ·
The ten was first around (pun intended), the .40 S&W is the weak placenta and the compromise between the 10 and the 9. If there is one round out of that bunch that we don't need anymore, its the .40 S&W.

Why?

The 10mm, offers very little over the 40. With the exception of recoil, muzzle blast, and requiring a larger frame.


With the exception of the easy availability of good hard cast woods loads, there's little reason the 40 should be replaced by the 10.
 
#135 · (Edited)
I wasn't serious in that regard. I do not mind if the .40 S&W sticks around and if people like that caliber over others. Generally speaking, I love all the caliber variety we have available to us. But if somebody wants to single out those calibers that make most sense, I'd rather see 2 options available: like the 9mm and the 10mm, rather than just the compromise in the middle, the .40 S&W.

The image I posted earlier in this thread is - obviously - also not serious. It is a long running joke from the 10mm community. Thinking about it, I wouldn't be surprise if some folks think that the nuke mushroom in that 10mm gel image is real. Just for the record, it is not. It is photo-shopped. But it doesn't change the fact that the 10mm is Glock's most powerful caliber-offering.

At the end of the day, all these caliber comparison "wars" and threads are utterly useless because there is almost always one larger or more powerful caliber available. Somebody who doesn't like the 10mm tends to come up with a .44 Mag, and so on. Up to the point where people can't handle the recoil, let alone rise anymore. So what's the point. At the end of that food chain is a gun that I own, which is an un-ported .500 S&W Magnum 2 2/3" barrel snubby that can be loaded with 700gr hardcarst. The long barreled version WITH ports raised the barrel right in-front of some shooters face and "double-tapped" their head right off. Guess how the rise of that un-ported snubby is.

Anyways... I am a 10mm fan, so yes, the .40 S&W is IN MY BOOK just a boring compromise. Doesn't mean anything.
 
#145 ·
One question about your terminology. You speak of "regressive" powders and "neutral" powders. How does this relate to burn rate? by regressive do you mean slow burning powders? And by "Neutral" do you mean Medium burn rate powders?

With the case capacity relative to the bore diameter and bullet weights most common to the 10mm, burn rates vary from medium burn rate powders such as Unique which is a relatively fast burning powder for the 10mm, to AA9 which is about the slowest powder used in the 10mm.

In-between might be 800x, which is still faster that AA7 and Blue dot but is not what I would consider to be a "neutral" burn rate powder.

Additionally, if a slow burn rate powder is considered "Regressive" are faster burning powders then considered to be Progressive?

I've never heard these terms used before. Otherwise I appreciate your concern for wanting to stay below SAAMI peak pressures. There are some here who disregard such concerns and that's always troubled me since without actual pressure testing equipment it's impossible to know just how far over peak pressure any load is.
Thank you for your questions...if I wrote regressive I apologize, it should have been written degressive. I mentioned degressive and neutral powders as it related to the .38 Super N105 loading, N105 being a neutral powder = a higher pressure/travel curve with a lower peak chamber pressure vs a degressive powder that has a higher peak pressure, but this type of powder has a rapid pressure drop and low pressure/travel curve.

I don't know if powders from other companies use this terminology or not, maybe it's a VV thing, regardless, 3N38 and N105 are top performers in certain combinations. :)

The VihtaVuori 4th edition (ISBN 978-951-97156-3-6 should anyone wish to do an interlibrary loan) has 11 pages devoted to the "Behaviour of Nitrocellulose Powders". If there are degressive powders (handguns), it's implied that there are progressive powders (rifle) and neutral powders (3N38 and N105) fall in between.

Powder types like ball (spherical), flake and non-perforated grain designs are considered to be degressive powders. Perforations increase the burn surface, single perforated grains are considered to be neutral, while 7-perforated and 15-perforated grains are considered as progressive powders.

The burning rate of powder composed of kernels without any perforations or surface treatment is related to the surface area of the grain available for burning at any given pressure level. The change in the surface area that is burning combustion is described by a so-called form function. If this area increases the form function does likewise and its behaviour is termed "progressive". If the form function decreases, in other words the total powder surface area that is burning decreases as the combustion progresses, its behaviour is said to be degressive. If the flame area remains constant throughout the combustion process, we describe it as "neutral" behaviour.

As you wrote, powder grain size can be small, medium and large...with three different pressure curves.

Put another way, using VV max loading pressure of 33,350psi, 38 Super (VV same operating pressure 10mm), a 125gr bullet with a neutral powder, N105 can attain ~1500fps, a degressive powder (any VV powder faster than 3N38) would be well over that pressure threshold to reach 1500fps.

The work which the combustion gases perform while accelerating the bullet can be expressed through the pressure/travel curve as...
work = cross-sectional area of barrel * pressure/travel curve area


The appropriate formulae were printed, but I am unable to write some of the symbols used for these mathematical calculations. :) With modern powder designs, pressure under the curve area needs to be included in bullet acceleration and exterior velocities.

I prefer the way VihtaVuori displays their powder burn rates, in columns compared to using numerical lists. Burn rate charts are approximate, with that in mind, VV charts N105 closer to AA #7 than AA #9. I have not used N105 to load in 10mm, but it performs very well in my handloads for .38 Super/125gr and .44mag/200gr.

I no longer load JHPs max for 10mm because of lack of bullet integrity beginning ~1300fps, now my velocity goal is ~1250fps...it does make for faster split times and consistent penetration depths. :)
 
#149 ·
Thank you for your questions...if I wrote regressive I apologize, it should have been written degressive. I mentioned degressive and neutral powders as it related to the .38 Super N105 loading, N105 being a neutral powder = a higher pressure/travel curve with a lower peak chamber pressure vs a degressive powder that has a higher peak pressure, but this type of powder has a rapid pressure drop and low pressure/travel curve.

I don't know if powders from other companies use this terminology or not, maybe it's a VV thing, regardless, 3N38 and N105 are top performers in certain combinations. :)

The VihtaVuori 4th edition (ISBN 978-951-97156-3-6 should anyone wish to do an interlibrary loan) has 11 pages devoted to the "Behaviour of Nitrocellulose Powders". If there are degressive powders (handguns), it's implied that there are progressive powders (rifle) and neutral powders (3N38 and N105) fall in between.

Powder types like ball (spherical), flake and non-perforated grain designs are considered to be degressive powders. Perforations increase the burn surface, single perforated grains are considered to be neutral, while 7-perforated and 15-perforated grains are considered as progressive powders.

The burning rate of powder composed of kernels without any perforations or surface treatment is related to the surface area of the grain available for burning at any given pressure level. The change in the surface area that is burning combustion is described by a so-called form function. If this area increases the form function does likewise and its behaviour is termed "progressive". If the form function decreases, in other words the total powder surface area that is burning decreases as the combustion progresses, its behaviour is said to be degressive. If the flame area remains constant throughout the combustion process, we describe it as "neutral" behaviour.

As you wrote, powder grain size can be small, medium and large...with three different pressure curves.

Put another way, using VV max loading pressure of 33,350psi, 38 Super (VV same operating pressure 10mm), a 125gr bullet with a neutral powder, N105 can attain ~1500fps, a degressive powder (any VV powder faster than 3N38) would be well over that pressure threshold to reach 1500fps.

The work which the combustion gases perform while accelerating the bullet can be expressed through the pressure/travel curve as...
work = cross-sectional area of barrel * pressure/travel curve area


The appropriate formulae were printed, but I am unable to write some of the symbols used for these mathematical calculations. :) With modern powder designs, pressure under the curve area needs to be included in bullet acceleration and exterior velocities.

I prefer the way VihtaVuori displays their powder burn rates, in columns compared to using numerical lists. Burn rate charts are approximate, with that in mind, VV charts N105 closer to AA #7 than AA #9. I have not used N105 to load in 10mm, but it performs very well in my handloads for .38 Super/125gr and .44mag/200gr.

I no longer load JHPs max for 10mm because of lack of bullet integrity beginning ~1300fps, now my velocity goal is ~1250fps...it does make for faster split times and consistent penetration depths. :)
Thank you for your well thought out and detailed answer.

It seems to me that what you're saying is that a degressive powder is a fast burning powder and a progressive is a slow burning powder because of the following statement:

"If there are degressive powders (handguns), it's implied that there are progressive powders (rifle) and neutral powders (3N38 and N105) fall in between."

I'm not as familiar with VV powders As i am alliant, AA or Hodgdon powders, but using VV powders as an example if the fastest burning powder is VV310 which on the Hodgdon burn rate chart is #2 and Norma R1 is #1, and the slowest powder on the chart is VV20N20 which is #150 on the chart while Hodgdon US869 is number 149, then what would be a "neutral" powder would be something half way in between the fastest and the slowest which would be number #75 on the chart which is actually VVN120 at # 75 while Hodgdon H322 is number 76.

So what this tells me is that the term "Neutral" is relative to a specific burn rate range.

So when you say that 3N38 and N105 fall in between fast and slow and are therefore "Neutral" what I assume you mean is that they are neither fast nor slow but medium burn rate powders but specifically for the 10mm between the range of Unique or Power Pistol at the lower (fastest) end of the range, and the upper end (meaning the slowest powder) of the range for the 10mm, which is AA9.

But what needs to be considered as far as a specific burn rate range for a specific cartridge is that the burn rate range of the 10mm is different from the burn rate range of the 9mm for example, where powders as fast as Bullseye are used, and where Unique is a medium or neutral burn rate powder, and Blue dot is about the slowest powder commonly used in the 9mm. So where Unique is a medium burn rate powder for the 9mm, it's actually a fast burn rate powder relative to the larger case capacity of the 10mm Auto.

I often consult burn rate charts but what I've found is that the is no one universal burn rate chart. Hodgdon rates their powders differently than does AA and AA rates their powders differently than does Alliant and so on and so forth so it's necessary to view several charts to get a better Idea of the burn rate of a specific powder.

Years ago when I mostly worked with Hercules and later Alliant pistol powders I pretty much knew all of those relative burn rates by heart, but now there's new powder from tim to time an a lot more to keep track of.

 
#146 · (Edited)
''Did you experience any extraction marks on the 40 rim?''

I don't think so, still have most of the brass, put it back in
the boxes after the tests, talking about the UW 10MM.

That 10mm test was done around two years ago, all of the
brass is 2600 miles away and will be seven months before
we get back to Idaho, we are in Florida for winter.

You are right about the amount of info in that post, many
barrels and guns and two cases. I like to find what a gun
will do, not what someone on the I net says, I think many
just echo what they read from others echoing.

We mostly shoot cast in the 40 and 10mm, these are what
I have tested the most,

https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/0000690690/6-cavity-mold-401-175-tc

http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/produc...ucts_id=436&osCsid=qgv8k8j4vt6apmsts2acp4hmr0

We have most of the Lee molds but have not used all of them.

This is my latest, have not shot any but have cast some, believe
it will be the best, gave WW some to test. He is good at testing.

http://arsenalmolds.com/products?product_id=103&limit=100
Those 180gr WFNs look very nice, what meplat diameter. The 200gr WFNs I load have a .320 meplat, with a 1.260" COAL, they don't load in the 1911 10mm mags, G20 no problem with LW or KKM barrels.:) Those 180s look like they may load well in the 1911 magazines. How did you arrive at the .403 diameter? What do you test your loads against?

Loading the .40 long never occurred to me, that has piqued my interest. Similar to how the 6.5 Creedmoor and .260Rem compare.

Thanks for sharing. :)
 
#147 ·
Those 180gr WFNs look very nice, what meplat diameter. The 200gr WFNs I load have a .320 meplat, with a 1.60" COAL, they don't load in the 1911 10mm mags, G20 no problem with LW or KKM barrels.:) Those 180s look like they may load well in the 1911 magazines. How did you arrive at the .403 diameter? What do you test your loads against?

Loading the .40 long never occurred to me, that has piqued my interest. Similar to how the 6.5 Creedmoor and .260Rem compare.

Thanks for sharing. :)

The 198gr is .620'' long and a .300'' meplat,
the 180 is actually 176gr and a .310'' meplat.

I got the 180 because I really like the Lee 180,
it is only .598'' long and I could get the fps up
for the longer shots and I believe with FN boolits
speed helps. With the new 180 even shorter
there is more room for powder and more fps.

Some more reasons I like the 180, with a cast boolit
it will still penetrate good and we use it in the 40,
less room unless you load long, can't always do that
though.

I believe the 200 gr is not the best weight for the 40,
it does work good if you load long.

Without going over Hodgdons data, the 180 can really
smoke, even in the small guns, as was noted in that data,
we also load a little long even in the g22, 23, 27, up to
1.155'' with most cast boolits. Combine that longer
OAL with the shorter boolit, extrapolate.

I don't know if you shoot 40 brass in your G20 10mm
barrel or not and I am not saying it is a good idea, many
of us do it all the time. I have got some of my best groups
in the 6.6'' LW 10mm barrel with 40 brass, even loaded
to standard 40 OAL. Never had a problem and you can
seat the boolits out as far as the big G20 mag will allow.

We do have a six inch LW 40 conversion barrel for the g20
and use a lot also.
 
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