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Most surprising betrayal ever?

21K views 483 replies 97 participants last post by  Darkangel1846 
#1 ·
Who could have seen this coming?
 

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#4 ·
While I believe Hickok is very educated and supports gun owners, I believe he may be wrong. If we “fall on our sword” what are we saying? That full auto is bad. Think how far we have come from “, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed”. I believe that we have compromised a lot to get from there to where we are now. To me I examine this my looking why did all those laws fail us? The law makers promised us we were safe. But as all of us really know. A “law” doesn’t stop a criminal mastermind. The Las Vegas shooter was smart, cunning, and patient. Think of all the laws he broke: Murder, firing a weapon inside the city limits, unlawful use of a firearm, etc. Did any of those laws stop him.....no? What happens next time when the criminal creates a bump stock and a silencer in his garage and does the same thing. How will we fall on our sword again? As we know the gun rights battle is never over. There will always be tyrants that want to take our guns away. Just look at all the people that post on FB laughing thinking it was good that a white killed whites. Or republicans got shot. There is a lot of Evil In the world. Never “fall on your sword” to playcate it. They will be back demanding more in the future.
 
#64 ·
NY state progressives describe their NY SAFE Act law as the "toughest gun law in the country" - but they do not stop for a moment to congratulate themselves.
They have since introduced a bill that requires microstamping capabilities for all guns both new and old retrofitted to comply. Another bill was introduced to "PREVENT TERRORISTS FROM STOCKPILING LARGE AMOUNTS OF AMMUNITION" - NY'ers would be "ALLOWED" "twice what your firearm will hold EVERY THREE MONTHS"!!! (There is a 10 round mag limit) so 11X2=22 bullets every three months. For each gun??? They didn't say.
EITHER WAY EVERY GUN WOULD NEED TO BE REGISTERED TO BE LEGAL - THIS GETS THEM THEIR PRIZE CONFISCATION LIST!

Both bills went nowhere.
BUT THEY KEEP TRYING!
It will never end.
Every argument for gun control is in the context of public safety.
This is not about public safety.
This is about achieving citizen disarmament.
NOT ONE MORE INCH
Before you argue that hardline stance - imagine waking up one morning and YOU are required to comply with NY gun laws.
Would you consider surrendering MORE to progressive hysteria.
 
#5 ·
I agree with him , pick your battles and comprise on more important things .

There are far more people that don't really care about guns one way or the other . Those are the people that we need on our side . The side that can sound and act more reasonable is the side they are more likely going to side with . Taking a , I will not budge stance will make us look like Hillary and we saw where that got her .

We could do more for gun rights if each of us would take a kid hunting or shooting sometime soon , instead of sounding like the crazy gun guy .

Yes , I know the crazy liberals will always be after our guns , that is why we have to sound like the reasonable side around your friends and coworkers and take a kid or someone you know that hasn't shot a firearm hunting or shooting . They are our future .
 
#8 ·
This is a good example. We ban bump stocks only to find out they haven’t solved the problem. Then the politicians have to find a way to slow the rate of fire. Ummm ummm limit magazine capacity. Then the shooter will have to do more mag changes. Afterwards, there will be another shooting. Then we should get rid of all semi automatics. Let’s just do bolt action. We give an inch they take a mile. I’m hearing politicians saw “IF” he used a silencer he would have killed more people. They want silencers banned as well.
 
#7 ·
I agree with him. I never heard of bump stocks until a week ago.

With that said. I would like to be face to face with finestein and tell her N F W are the progressives ever getting anything else regarding the second amendment. I will support banning bump stocks if we add it to the national hearing protection act. They have to give a little to get a little.
 
#9 ·
I agree with him. Bump fire stocks and trigger cranks and the like are toys for people who play with their guns. Not useful for shooters and certainly not a reason for an all or nothing battle with the anti-gun forces, that could grow into something worse. We just need to debate whether the best strategy for keeping them from going after actual guns is to go along or to fight a delaying action on this issue.

What the NRA has said may turn out to be a great strategy. They have said, "let ATF take another look." That will delay doing anything until the immediate furor dies down and most liberals move on to some new conspiracy theory or non-PC remark by the president. It gives us a good response to "we need to pass a law before we even know the facts!" - the response is, "wait until the ATF has finished its review." At the same time, ATF's initial opinion was based on the existing law and regulations and it is unlikely to change - bump firing is just pulling the trigger fast. It's a technique, not a device. NRA's end result may very well be that the whole thing fades away with no changes to anything, including bump-fire stocks.
 
#11 ·
Yep. Make sure you send in your donations so the NRA can fight for your cause. All the Firearms manufacturers are laying off employees. Never let a crisis go to waste. Got to stimulate doners to get the money flowing again. The NRA makes more money when gun owners are losing rather than winning.
 
#13 ·
The politicians know the laws they pass aren’t good. The only way to “fix” things is to give them more and more power. Let’s look at Obamacare. That was supposed to make health insurance all better. But now they know it sucks. It’s a crisis. They need to fix it. So to fix it the populace needs to give politicians more power. I wish at my current employment I could do a bad job. Then when the boss comes in to ask what’s wrong, I could just say: Ok I need a 100% pay raise and a new car then everything will be sunshine and lollipops.
 
#14 ·
Bump stocks never should have been lawful to begin with. There is no practical reason for them to exist.
I strongly support 2nd Amendment and own a number of firearms, belong to a gun club ( outdoor pistol and rifle range, trap, skeet, sporting clays, 3 gun, 5 station), and CC. However, sometimes you have to do the right thing. Fixing a wrong does not mean you are giving in it means your are using your brain.
 
#41 ·
Bump stocks never should have been lawful to begin with. There is no practical reason for them to exist.
I strongly support 2nd Amendment and own a number of firearms, belong to a gun club ( outdoor pistol and rifle range, trap, skeet, sporting clays, 3 gun, 5 station), and CC. However, sometimes you have to do the right thing. Fixing a wrong does not mean you are giving in it means your are using your brain.
Um, well, no. According to the ATF, they're perfectly legal. How do they then become illegal? What changed? Lots of people, including some gun owners, think there is no practical reason for 30 round magazines or AR rifles to exist either. Do you support banning them? There doesn't have to be a practical reason for something to exist.
 
#16 ·
Read the bill. That wording is already there, "any device that increases the rate of fire". Legally interpret that to read your Apex trigger or hell, even a Jerry Miculek Jr.
Be careful what you wish for.
NRA is smart. Obama admin opened the door for the Bump Fire in 2010. Let ATF determine if they need further oversight and stay completely away from a vote to ban.
My .02
 
#48 ·
And what do you think "shall not infringe" means?

There is no good argument that it means "shall make no laws" like the 1st Amendment says.
 
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#21 ·
We all know this won’t solve the problem and that there are many other ways to achieve the same thing. -Ways that will all be left off of any legislation. But how do we defend bump fire to the majority of folks who hate guns, are ambivalent or don’t care? How do you defend this to folks who don’t see it as an incremental release of the 2nd Amendment???
 
#22 ·
I think bump stocks might be the sacrificial lamb to keep "assault rifles" legal.

When 59 people are killed and over 400 wounded, there will be some sort of consequences in the form of new laws.
 
#53 ·
So the leftists have perfected extortion. ‘Give up this or we will go after that!’
Swell :upeyes:
 
#54 ·
Another fudd heard from. Do you really think they won’t scream for your sheet soon? That is bruce jenner and bradley manning thinking right there.
 
#26 ·
Do we compromise on the First Amendment? Or the Fifth? Or the 10th? Or any Amendment at all?

Then why the hell compromise on the 2nd Amendment? Compromise gets us to the here and now. No more compromises.

Full auto firearms are regulated and controlled. Bump fire and trigger cranks aren't full auto. Period. End of story.
 
#30 ·
I'm with Hickock on this.
And sure as **** he ain't no traitor.

Full auto firearms are regulated and controlled. Bump fire and trigger cranks aren't full auto. Period. End of story.
They are not but they increase the rate of fire enough to confuse people as they sound as automatic weapons.
Just read the threads here. People were saying it was auto. Not all of them but proves a point.
 
#27 ·
What year will we add to the list of our rights getting trampled 2017 or 2018?

We already have
1934
1938
1968
1986
1990
1993
1994
 
#29 ·
SCOTUS has ruled, in Heller I believe, "Reasonable Restrictions Apply" is really what "Shall Not Be Infringed" means.

I thought we all knew that.

Never having thought about or used one, don't they still make rifle climb to the right and thus, accuracy is "out the window?" (pun not-with-standing and yes, in bad taste in this case)
 
#32 ·
I think that words are important, and I'd like to offer my thoughts on a word a few people are using, IMO, very inaccurately in this thread. When your opponent wants to take everything from you and leave you nothing, and then you start offering them exactly what they want, of your own volition, that isn't compromise. That's called appeasing a bully. It's only a compromise if both parties have something to concede to the other party.

If you are traveling on a public street and someone comes up to you and threatens to restrict your rights by saying he's going to kidnap you, do you gain anything by saying to him, "How about I only spend Tuesdays and Thursdays locked up in your basement?"
 
#33 ·
First of all a bump stock or binary trigger is not a gun or a gun part. If it was it would fall under the NFA already. Its an external device used to activate the trigger quickly. Technically, its not even a Second Amendment issue. Someone is sure to post I'm talking technicalities, technicalities is the only reason they are around now.

They are indefensible in any debate on TV. If the NRA got up there and argued they are not a machine gun the other side is going to pull up countless videos on Youtube and it is going to look and sound like a machine gun to the public. The reason for this is it looks and sounds like a machine gun. The mechanics of it doesn't matter, the optics are just awful.

Frankly defending them is dumb politics. This is not the last time we will see them used in this manner. Las Vegas showed the way. The next active shooters are going to have them as well and when they say the NRA wants active shooters to have machine guns it would ring true. Pointing out that any semi-auto could do the same thing with a shoe string is going to hurt more than it helps. Because the argument then becomes maybe we should get rid of semi autos.

Maybe we should just face the fact that they are dumb things that even when used legally are pretty stupid and when used wrong are very dangerous.
 
#35 ·
Or mab
First of all a bump stock or binary trigger is not a gun or a gun part. If it was it would fall under the NFA already. Its an external device used to activate the trigger quickly. Technically, its not even a Second Amendment issue. Someone is sure to post I'm talking technicalities, technicalities is the only reason they are around now.

They are indefensible in any debate on TV. If the NRA got up there and argued they are not a machine gun the other side is going to pull up countless videos on Youtube and it is going to look and sound like a machine gun to the public. The reason for this is it looks and sounds like a machine gun. The mechanics of it doesn't matter, the optics are just awful.

Frankly defending them is dumb politics. This is not the last time we will see them used in this manner. Las Vegas showed the way. The next active shooters are going to have them as well and when they say the NRA wants active shooters to have machine guns it would ring true. Pointing out that any semi-auto could do the same thing with a shoe string is going to hurt more than it helps. Because the argument then becomes maybe we should get rid of semi autos.

Maybe we should just face the fact that they are dumb things that even when used legally are pretty stupid and when used wrong are very dangerous.
Maybe before anyone runs for office they should have to pass a test on the Constitution , what their oath means and agree to being thrown out of office if they violate either one .
 
#36 ·
I think everyone is understanding of the whole politics is a game off compromise. It’s how it works and has worked for hundreds of years. What the NRA and seemingly the GOP are doing is capitulating. Compromise is a process by which both Barrie’s get something. You know. We go to a car dealer and the buyer wants a free car and the seller wants $$ without giving up the car. After some debate the seller gives up an amount he is comfortable with and the seller gets $$ he can make a profit on and we go our separate ways. The NRA and GOP walked into a dealer and dropped a bag of $$ on the floor and walked out. WTF level of stupid is that?

It’s unlikely that gun owners will come out of this unscathed, but atkeast get something in return for giving up anything. Trade bumpfire for tax cuts, Hughes amendment repeal, a bloody root canal anything.

I’m also wary of doing this via BATFE edict. Screw that’s. Force the nutless GOP to go on record with support for more gun control so we as their employers can fire them at the next election.
 
#38 ·
When they pass KNEE JERK laws, or FEEL GOOD LAWS, it keeps IGNORANT PEOPLE voting to keep haters in power. Being that i live in NYS, ask me how i know this as fact. The NY Safe-Act has NOT stopped ANY criminal, and it NEVER WILL...PERIOD. The ONLY thing it has stopped, is a LEGAL firearms owner, from owning any mags that can hold more than 10rds, but my neighbors 5min across the PA boarder can have hi cap mags 24/7. Why is it ok for my neighbor, but not ok for me. Being able to previously own hi cap mags before the UNsafe-act, didnt turn me into a crazy or a killer.

Until this mental crazy murderer killed 58 people, i didnt even know what a "bumpfire" gun stock was or even knew such things existed. Any sane person knows that it wasn`t the "bumpfire" gun stock that actually killed anything, it was the mental hands it was in.

So, if you give in to the haters, we gun loving owners ALL lose. I`m not the type of gun owner that would ever buy a bumpstock, but it dosent mean i wouldn`t support those that WOULD, want one. If you leave a crack in the door, it only means you`ll let the haters have a way to get in, and wreak havoc on GOOD gun owners. Thank you Hickok45...NOT...!!!

I totally disagree with Hickok45 on this subject. Is he a traitor, to some degree, yes. Your either with us, or your against us. You cant play both sides of the fence, especially when it comes to the constitution of the united states.

Will more laws/bans fix the problem... no, they will not. We have a system that does not work. Adding more laws makes about as much sense as adding more gas to a fire that is already out of control. DUHHHHH...!!!!! Where`s the common sense today....!!!! Oh, thats right, there isnt` any today.

Enjoy your firearms folks... one day they will be ALL gone... Thank people like Hickok45 for playing both sides of the fence and letting the fox in the henhouse... people like him are letting the anti-gunners walk all over us. People like him are leaving the door UNLOCKED. Passing FEEL GOOD laws are just that... makes people feel good, but not people like, me.

You stand with us, or you dont. NO MORE LAWS....!!!! Until the sick society that the liberals ARE responsible for is fixed, the killings are going to get worse. Whether its by a gun, or a knife, crazy sick people WILL find a way to kill others. Kill the killers, problem solved.

Like it or love it, thats my rant... be safe & be alert, my fellow gun owners...!
 
#39 · (Edited)
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