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Pepper Spray

7K views 77 replies 39 participants last post by  beatcop 
#1 ·
Yesterday at 8:29 PM#1

drcotlar
Many recognized authorities in self defense recommend that one carry pepper spray, if one wishes to carry a gun. The reason being so that individual has an opportunity for a non lethal defense before resorting to firing his gun. How many posters here do that and have actually used the pepper spray in threatening situation; if so, did it resolve the threat?
 
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#48 ·
Latest & best rated book on Self Defense I just read states that NOT carrying a Non Lethal means of protection (O.C. Spray, Taser, etc.) is one of the 10 Biggest reasons people wind up spending their lives behind bars. Have mentioned here on other post but its "THE LAW OF SELF DEFENSE The Indispensable Guide for the Armed Citizen". I saw it Highly Recommended in "HANDGUNNER Magazine" and can agree with them 100% now that I've read it once. Don't plan for it to be the only time though and about ready to start over. I had NO idea how much Ohio's legal court system SUCKS! Glad I don't live there or in any of the other commy States.
I myself besides my G19 & G42 carry a 4 oz. can of FOX 5.3 Million SHU pepper spray and a Cold Steel defense cane. They claim unbreakable and I believe its as close to that as you could possibly get. Can't remember name now but is a copy of a design by Steven Segal. I cut it down to Proper length for my height & had to cut ??? approx 5" off IIRC.
 
#50 ·
Everyone has non-lethal means of self-defense available if they have arms and legs and a voice that can utter words. Get some training in verbal de-escalation and in "unarmed" self- defense. I am not talking about martial arts, but no-nonsense quickie courses of the type offered to students on college campuses.

Each gadget comes with its own specific parameters for use, so buying them without adequate training in intermediate use of force law and in actual deployment guidelines and techniques is not going to make them very helpful on the street or in court.

As far as Tasers go, the way the Taser cases are coming down in court these days in matters involving police, a citizen would be making a mistake to use one in situations not requiring a higher level of force. Taser carriers should get a great deal of documented training under the umbrella of the manufacturer.
 
#49 · (Edited)
And even in a SYG state, if you shoot and kil an person who say pushes you, throws a punch at you, etc., you are going to be convicted of at least manslaughter and do a fair amount of prison time for it. Even if you draw and warn off the guy, and he still charges you empty handed, you're still likely guilty. The threat still has to be lethal to respond with lethal force, which a gun is always considered. Hose the same attacker down with pepper spray, likely no legal problems.
I don't think that applies to people like me; I'm disbaled and cannot run away. I am also life dependent on my pacemaker (if it stops, my heart stops), so I cannot take a punch or strong push to the chest. I also have a mechanical heart valve, an aortic graft (my ascending aorta is a piece of Gortex), for which I must take a blood thinner, so I cannot take a blow to the head, I have bilateral carotid artery dissections which are stented, so I cannot take a blow to the neck, my entire aorta is dissected into my left renal (kidney) artery, so I cannot take a blow to my back. If someone is not armed with any weapons other than his/her hands and feet, those weapons are still lethal to me. I would have no choice but to use deadly force in a situation where someone who is considered unarmed, decided to attack me.
 
#52 ·
You're issues may certainly change the calculation of what would be considered a deadly attack. There is always the issue of disparity of force. But your issues aren't typical. For a relatively able bodied person, I still think what I said is legally correct.
 
#54 ·
Quickly pulled this up and good info shouldn't be hard to find.https://legalinsurrection.com/2015/05/media-still-doesnt-understand-stand-your-ground/. The majority of stand your ground states are Republican and duty to retreat states are mostly Democrat. I would move out of a duty to retreat state. Tactics, situational awareness, avoiding conflict etc.. are good to study. Where one lives is as important if not more so. Don't know the numbers but I am sure many good men are in prison that would not have even been prosecuted in a stand your ground state. And how many truly bad men are still victimizing people ONLY because they live in a duty to retreat state? There they can test the waters and always walk away. I gave links in my last post on spray and distance. So-let them get 15ft away and then spray when 21feet is as close as you should let one get? I am not going to shoot someone unless they force me to. An apparently unarmed man man can arm himself quickly. If I misjudge and underestimate trouble I probably wont have time to drop spray and go for gun.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fjMpn7JCJ0
In some situations spray away but an Officer was killed depending on spray in the link on spray I provided in my last post.
 
#55 ·
Looks like I'm covered here in Michigan.

MCL 780.972 states: “Use of deadly force by individual not engaged in commission of crime; conditions.

Sec. 2.

(1) An individual who has not or is not engaged in the commission of a crime at the time he or she uses deadly force may use deadly force against another individual anywhere he or she has the legal right to be with no duty to retreat if either of the following applies:

(a) The individual honestly and reasonably believes that the use of deadly force is necessary to prevent the imminent death of or imminent great bodily harm to himself or herself or to another individual.

(b) The individual honestly and reasonably believes that the use of deadly force is necessary to prevent the imminent sexual assault of himself or herself or of another individual.

(2) An individual who has not or is not engaged in the commission of a crime at the time he or she uses force other than deadly force may use force other than deadly force against another individual anywhere he or she has the legal right to be with no duty to retreat if he or she honestly and reasonably believes that the use of that force is necessary to defend himself or herself or another individual from the imminent unlawful use of force by another individual.”
 
#59 ·
R
NG, while your covered in MI for this same as I am in Indiana, it will Look Much Better In Court "IF" you at least Try to retreat first before resorting to drastic defense. Item no. 1 listed.
IN adopted the no retreat law or "Castle Doctrine" as its often called several years ago. However I just recently found out that what it actually MEANS happens to be a whole lot different than probably 99.5% of the people here "THINK"!
If possible at all, besides Screaming STOP, GO AWAY, HELP, retreat at the same time your doing it. Making all the noise attracts attention and attention provides witnesses in court that You WERE trying to retreat and get away.
Shocking how many of my friends have absolutely NO knowledge of what the law means and still carry guns. Its VERY Complicated today due to LAWYERS. Sad but True.
Read my previous comment; I am not physically able to retreat. Also, Michigan does not go by the Castle Doctrine. Michigan is a true Stand Your Ground state.
 
#61 ·
R

Read my previous comment; I am not physically able to retreat. Also, Michigan does not go by the Castle Doctrine. Michigan is a true Stand Your Ground state.
Not able to RUN here either since 6/6/94 when I myself was disabled in an auto accident on my way to work by a 17 yr. old brat that ran an intersection & planting his pick up in the driver's side of mine. I ONLY got triple fractures in both Lumbar and Cervical vertebrae and it changed our entire lives & of course ended my job as an Ironworker forever. Also crushed "radial lumbar nerves" whatever the heck that is? Never been able to find it here on the Internet. Ironworkers have NO NEED for guys with broken necks & backs and what results from it.
IF you can't do anything at all N.Goat, you can Still Back Up while hollering to attract attention and hopefully scare the BG perp.. IF you can't even do that, WTF are you doing out in public anyway?
HOW did you get there in the first place then?
I think some people, NO, I "know" some people just want to shoot somebody else, I've heard them talking before. If you ever do, its something you'll Never Forget unless your just not human. Well over 40 yrs. ago but Still think of it sometime or other Every Single Day & can't stop it OR sometimes the dreams.
I know very well that SOME people want to and actually hide behind a badge hopefully getting the chance! Before I was disabled, I was also a Pro Skydiver, Instructor, Jumpmaster but got knocked out of that also besides my Ironworker's career. We used to eat & drink beer at a little hole in the wall bar/grill on Hwy. 31 after the jump day was over and it was not uncommon for the Indy SWAT team (or one War Wagon of them) would stop to drink after a call out was over. Some of them seemed like very nice LEO's BUT Some of them would definitely be just plain street thugs or gangbangers "IF" they weren't able to hide behind their badge. I've heard them brag to many times AND complain once because a subject was found at the bottom of the basement stairs with his neck broke after they had been sitting out in the cold for hours to storm the house. One of them even said "Sh!t I didn't even get to kick his ribs in or anything let alone shoot him" fell down the dang stairs while I was sitting out there in the snow for hours freezing!
Its all up to You Goat. If you think you know all the laws now, fine. Not ME spending the time behind bars "I Hope" anyway!
BTW: With all you claim is wrong with you, HOW do you do Anything besides Breath?
Hasta La Bye Bye now.
 
#63 ·
W

Wow. How pompous and disrespectful of you to suggest that I'm lying about my condition. Then to suggest that I'm somehow fabricating it or exaggerating it as an excuse to shoot someone, comparing me to alleged corrupt/murderous SWAT team members which you allegedly overheard talking about murdering people. That takes a real sick mind to think that way. And to compare a spinal injury/disability with congenital cardiovascular disabilities, is comparing apples to oranges. But you keep on with that self-righteous attitude, Mr. Ironworker.

If you possessed even the most basic remedial reading comprehension skills, you'd know that all I was stating is that a person's hands had feet are deadly weapons to someone in my condition, and that from my understanding of Michigan law, I have the legal right to use deadly force against persons who attack me with only their hands and feet as weapons.

How you took from that, that I am lying about my disabilities as a pretext to commit murder, is God's own private mystery, and a mighty bold statement, with which you have no evidence to back up.
I did NOT "Allegedly" over hear the SWAT team talking about that stuff! I sat right there WITH them at "Millie's Desperation Depot" drinking beer with them and listening to their stuff. Since that was before 1994 and I'm sure Millie has died by now, don't even know if the ole Depot still exist since I cannot travel over about 20--25 mi. away from home now. Millies was on Hwy 31 just outside Franklin, IN.
BTW NG: Just listening to how you put things and its You that sounds like you don't even WANT to attempt to stop the situation by removing yourself AND attracting all the attention you can get by Hollering things like STOP, GO AWAY to get all the witnesses looking at you that is possible just in case you DO have to use that gun. Those witnesses will help you out a lot in court so be loud and attract as much attention as possible!
 
#68 ·
And I have heard soliders talk that way too. Bravado. I have heard many people who nearly got into a life or death situation talk that way. A lighter version is : “if he hadn’t backed down, I would have kicked his butt.” Or in traffic how many said”someone better be dead up there”.

Bar room bravado isn’t Real most of the time.

And the “hiding behind the badge” comment kind of shows your feeling in general towards cops and you might not be the most objective observer or judge of police actions.

And it really didn’t have much to do with the thread.

I understand your pain. I have a back injury with disks, occasional sciatic pain, fused vertebrae. I’m lucky I’m not paralyzed and fortunately it happened in stages over the years where I was able to continue my goals. I’m sorry that happened to you. I learned the hard way, One does not understand back pain unless you have experienced it.

And since this Glock Talk, does it effect your shooting? If no, then it’s not the end. And it’s my “excuse” when I suck at it-lol
 
#64 ·
I often carry pepper spray with a firearm as a non-lethal option. I've never used on another person. Once used it on a loose dog that came running toward my dog. He didn't like it much. I've gotten it in my face and nose. I use FoxLabs pepper spray. Pretty unpleasant. I don't think it would stop me if I was 100% committed to an act, but I do think it would stop someone that was trying a target of opportunity or getting aggressive toward a confrontation (not yet fully committed in their own mind).
 
#72 ·
Its YOUR life and You decide where you wish to spend it, a FREE man or Behind Bars for 20 to Life! To "Me", FREEDOM is worth more than life itself so decisions are hard to make and if ever accosted again, HOPE I make the right one with today's laws. As goat posted MI's laws, yes those are it BUT, you really need to know HOW to read them and all the consequences. Best for that which I've come across since Massad Ayoob's "In The Gravest Extreme" many years ago and even though still a very good book is out dated. The book I just read by Andrew F. Branca is the absolute Best I've seen on this subject at this time.
People who "THINK" they know how to interpret the laws really Need to read it.
However, plainly put = its up to YOU what you want to do with your life & if $23 is to much to spend for a book like This One, then you don't have any $$$ to be buying ammo to practice with anyway and shouldn't be carrying.
Its YOUR life!
Surviving is all I want to do. Me thinks you worry too much about the law and not enough about surviving. I know when a man is a threat to me and would never shoot someone unless actually necessary. I have enough books and I know my laws in my state. I previously posted some of my thoughts and some links - if you disagree that is fine. However one gains knowledge one should know what they are doing and the laws that apply to THEM. To state one has no business carrying unless they buy ANY book I don't agree with. I'm sure the book you recommend is great but I will spend my money on other things thank you. You are correct - It is MY life. If the law was not on my side I would STILL put MY life above any law when it came to survival. I would not yell HELP though. - I will say something more convincing and project more confidence - if that does not suffice I don't need someone to help me. That is WHY I carry.
 
#78 ·
Posting use of force to folks with zero hands-on experience ends up to be a goat rope.

When I sprayed folks, I had the expectation of following it up with arrest & cuffs, not just spraying and running.

Can you spray someone and make a getaway? Sure, you probably can, but it's going to be very situational. You may have to scrap a little...be ready for that reality.
Pepper spray works ok when you catch someone in the eyes. You can fight while sprayed, but makes it a bit harder.

If you can spray, great, but it's not a guarantee of a clean break.

I don't carry it on my person off duty, but I'm not in a high crime area either. I keep a can in my pov, because that's when I feel I'm likely to have conflict...some road rage idiot, parking space fool, etc.
 
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