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If you poo-poo pistol accuracy; I assume you are incapable of it...

15K views 300 replies 92 participants last post by  willie_pete 
#1 ·
I've been reviewing a lot of threads lately regarding accuracy in defensive pistols due to my participation in GSSF indoor matches, which require shooting a stock Glock at 25yds, off-hand.

I've noticed a lot of dismissive comments by a number of people whenever someone asks about accuracy.

The most common comments are things like, "Glocks(or any defensive handgun) are defensive pistols and there is no need for it to be accurate beyond 7-10yds..." "Glocks aren't accurate", "Glocks are more accurate than most shooters", "all ammo is more accurate than most shooters", "you need to practice and train rather than worry about accuracy", etc...

Of course common sense tells most of us that there are legitimate reasons for wishing to get the most accuracy out of our pistols as possible.

Common sense says that most shootings are at less than 10yds and that is the distance you should be most proficient at with your defensive handgun.

But common sense also says that defensive handguns are used for more than simply shooting quickly at 7-10yds and increased accuracy is a preferred trait in some applications. Some of us simply enjoy the challenge of making the smallest groups possible with their defensive handguns.

Which is why there are a number of threads focused on the accuracy potential of handguns and their ammunition.

And in every thread there are the previously mentioned comments.

I know that 98% of people posting here aren't mentally retarded and are able to read English and understand what has just been communicated.

So why make comments that defy common sense and in a lot of cases insult or attack the person asking about accuracy?

My theory is because those people can't shoot worth a damn and have such an inferiority complex about it that they feel the need to attack and belittle others.

Or they make excuses as to why pursuing greater accuracy is a waste of time.

Their excuses and comments are so transparent that it's laughable and pathetic.

So, when someone is asking about accuracy and you feel inadequate and your manhood threatened by your lack of shooting skills, please refrain from making idiotic comments in those threads.
 
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#157 ·
I've been reviewing a lot of threads lately regarding accuracy in defensive pistols due to my participation in GSSF indoor matches, which require shooting a stock Glock at 25yds, off-hand.

I've noticed a lot of dismissive comments by a number of people whenever someone asks about accuracy.

The most common comments are things like, "Glocks(or any defensive handgun) are defensive pistols and there is no need for it to be accurate beyond 7-10yds..." "Glocks aren't accurate", "Glocks are more accurate than most shooters", "all ammo is more accurate than most shooters", "you need to practice and train rather than worry about accuracy", etc...

Of course common sense tells most of us that there are legitimate reasons for wishing to get the most accuracy out of our pistols as possible.

Common sense says that most shootings are at less than 10yds and that is the distance you should be most proficient at with your defensive handgun.

But common sense also says that defensive handguns are used for more than simply shooting quickly at 7-10yds and increased accuracy is a preferred trait in some applications. Some of us simply enjoy the challenge of making the smallest groups possible with their defensive handguns.

Which is why there are a number of threads focused on the accuracy potential of handguns and their ammunition.

And in every thread there are the previously mentioned comments.

I know that 98% of people posting here aren't mentally retarded and are able to read English and understand what has just been communicated.

So why make comments that defy common sense and in a lot of cases insult or attack the person asking about accuracy?

My theory is because those people can't shoot worth a damn and have such an inferiority complex about it that they feel the need to attack and belittle others.

Or they make excuses as to why pursuing greater accuracy is a waste of time.

Their excuses and comments are so transparent that it's laughable and pathetic.

So, when someone is asking about accuracy and you feel inadequate and your manhood threatened by your lack of shooting skills, please refrain from making idiotic comments in those threads.
I believe that what you mention is actually a phenomenon of half truths perpetuated by enculturation of folks who keep spreading half truths. The firearms instructors out there these days will use statistics to tell everyone that a gun fight will typically occur within 10 yards. Due to the statistics it makes sense to train within this distance and the big takeaway is that the first shot on target is typically the winner. And folks typically don't shoot 25 yards or more with a pistol at the range so skills and confidence are minimal at this range for the typical individual. In my military training we had to shoot the pistol at a fairly broad spectrum of distances with high volumes of fire. We had hostage overlay targets so you didn't have much room for error especially at 25 yards. In the military most don't train for this distance with a pistol due to the same statistical analysis and the unlikely event that you would practically engage at distance. Even after watching the sniper challenge, it's apparent that our nations snipers have little need for precision pistoleering. So I say don't look at from a pessimistic viewpoint but rather try to educate and enlighten those who are uninitiated. You will find with time that you'll notice that the average joe or jane will have an average accuracy at conventional ranges with a pistol and that's just the way it is. Say a pie plate at 10 yards etc. And also remember that combat handgun is much more challenging than competition, so it's critical to get the first rounds on target and stop the threat.
 
#164 ·
The "if your not a proffesional" thing blows any attempted arguement for anyone who's spent time shooting with many police officers.

Some are certainly very good! but at most even local club level USPSA matches, most cops show up, shoot once, never to be seen again.

I've seen more than one muttering about being a "combat shooter" to preserve ego after not being able to hit a popper at 12 yards.:chatter:
 
#165 ·
Yep, I've seen that in IDPA matches also. Too bad, I think the only way to get better is to shoot with people that shoot better than you; you learn a lot watching better shooters. I agree, I think it is an " ego" thing.

wp
 
#166 · (Edited)
Help me out here, what am I doing wrong?
IF you can only shoot 8" groups @ 25yds then you need more practice, some add'l training, better glasses, something.
 
#167 ·
Well good thing you just made my point about paid professionals!

I think I stand a fairly good chance at protecting myself and my family in a dire situation within the statistical norms of what myself and professionals claim is most likely, as that is precisely what I prepare for 2-3x per week with 4 different pistols and a carbine. Guess which one is for shooting at a distance?.
Well statistics are great until you fall prey to the outside norm. Statistically you have a small chance of getting hit by lightening, doesn't mean you go play golf in a thunder storm. Any gun I carry is for shooting at any distance I feel the need to shoot; 7ft to 100yds +.
 
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#171 ·
You miss the point. All I'm suggesting is seeing a man at a measured 25yds will demonstrate that they ARE close enough to be dangerous.
Yeah and a guy with an AR at 100yrds is also dangerous. The distance of a "possible" adversary at any distance doesn't correlate to me taking a shot at 3, 5, 9, 15, or 25yards with a handgun and being accurate with it.

So let me ask a Question to you - a majority of agencies changed from 25 to 15 being the maximum distance for qualification. Did they do that because the majority of gunfights with a handgun take place at that distance or LEOs can't shoot at that distance?

As for "combat accuracy" (not saying you mentioned it), sure LEOs and civilians will use that as an excuse but it is also a relevant terminology. I now qualify a fed agency on a contract basis and we don't want a peppered target but we also don't want all the hits covered with a hand either. If it is the latter, we usually know they can speed up their shots under the time constraints given. Sometimes you fin gifted shooters who can shoot very fast and very accurately at the same time.


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#173 ·
Yeah and a guy with an AR at 100yrds is also dangerous. The distance of a "possible" adversary at any distance doesn't correlate to me taking a shot at 3, 5, 9, 15, or 25yards with a handgun and being accurate with it.
So let me ask a Question to you - a majority of agencies changed from 25 to 15 being the maximum distance for qualification. Did they do that because the majority of gunfights with a handgun take place at that distance or LEOs can't shoot at that distance?
As for "combat accuracy" (not saying you mentioned it), sure LEOs and civilians will use that as an excuse but it is also a relevant terminology. I now qualify a fed agency on a contract basis and we don't want a peppered target but we also don't want all the hits covered with a hand either. If it is the latter, we usually know they can speed up their shots under the time constraints given. Sometimes you fin gifted shooters who can shoot very fast and very accurately at the same time.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Well quals are about dept liability, it isn't training, but establishing a annual base line for competence. So there is every reason to dumb down a qual so all can qualify. Having a paid LEO ride a desk because he isn't firearms qualified is a cost thing plus a man power thing. Same reason agencies are going back to the 9mm, it's just easier to get their guys/gals qualified.
Plus many agencies are now issuing carbines with annual or semi annual quals. So the handgun, in those known active shooter responses, will be met with a rifle. We on the other hand rarely will have that advantage, so will have to fight with what we have on us. Hopefully that is a handgun/caliber you can hit with at the distance your fight brings you. We rarely get to choose the fight, but when it comes, ya better be ready.
BTW, it isn't being gifted to shoot fast & accurate. It is learned & practiced. It means 1000s of rounds to get there & then 100s a year to stay there.
 
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#174 ·
My dad was a WWII vet. Hetaught me to shoot a 22 rifle when I was 5 or 6.
As a family, we often had bb gun shooting matches in the basement.
Dad set me up with a co2 pellet pistol when I was about 10, and explained the fundamentals of sight picture, breathing control and trigger pull.
Before I ever fired a real handgun, I probably fired that pellet pistol a thousand times, shooting for group.
I was knocking down birds in tops of trees with that pellet gun in my teens.
By the time I started shooting real handguns, I had it down to the point that I am confident of my ability to put rounds on target out to 100yds with any reasonable service handgun
It's the fundamentals.
 
#175 ·
Yep, I have them sight the gun while I pull the trigger for them while I look up range. It always impresses them that they always shoot better with me manipulating the trigger ( sort of impresses trigger control on them).

wp
Interesting.

I have to try that.

A couple days ago I met a nice young lady working at Lowes.
If I talk to someone more than 5 minutes, the conversation gets around to guns and I usually invite them out to my place to learn to shoot (I supply the guns, ammo, etc free)
If that lady calls I'll try that technique.
 
#176 ·
The way I do it is

1. Student indexes on frame and I manipulate trigger while he aims. They usually see good hits which means they are aiming ok.

2. Then I put my finger on top of the student and tell them to not put any pressure while I manipulate the trigger. Should still be getting good hits

3. Then I have them put their finger on top of mine so they can feel a proper trigger pull.

Adjust as needed.

wp
 
#180 · (Edited)
This is five rounds of Federal 40 S&W 165 grain HST at a measured 50 yards, sitting in a lawn chair witn my legs crossed and with my hands rested on my left knee. This was about 10 minutes after sunset. By the time I shot and walked down to the target, it was dark enough I used a AAA light to take the photo. The total group is 5" and discounting my low shot, four went into 3 1/2".

Gun is my old 1997 G22, all stock including the plastic sights. BTW I'm one of those cops (now retired) who "can't shoot".



PS Dark spot at one o'clock is where some dumbass shot my mild steel pistol plate with a rifle. I need to weld that up.
 
#186 ·
My main focus is on practical pistol, specifically USPSA production, where I shoot G34's. Not claiming to be a badass group shooter, but I do blend that kind of thing into my practice once in a while. I've shot production guns that were quite a bit more mechanically accurate than the 34, but it never seems to make much difference in what I can do off-hand.

In good conditions, I can generally group around 1.5 inches at 20 yards off-hand. I've shot a few groups inside 1 inch at that distance with the 34, and at least one inside 0.75 inch. With production ammo, I can place C-zone hits pretty well out to 100 yards. But as with groups, that's outside my normal realm.

The 34 seems to print pretty much what I see throughout all distances I shoot it. On a good day, my freestyle hold at 20 yards is probably about 1 inch. I just can't see any better than that.

First video below shows some groups blended into practice out to about 20 yards. Second video shows singles and triples on C-zone steel out to 100 yards. I wasn't quite as consistent as I wanted to be on the triples.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AzvNO-ldLvY&t=16s



View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rU1yz7i_-WE&t=3s
 
#187 ·
You guys should check out some of our monthly challenges. Ede is a routine winner ( this month also it looks like ). In fact, come join us.

wp
 
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#220 ·
You guys should check out some of our monthly challenges. Ede is a routine winner ( this month also it looks like ). In fact, come join us.

wp



I can't afford it. :dunno:
 
#189 ·
I will at each range session shoot at 25 yards. I like to shoot milk jugs, and other plastic containers filled with water so I can see my results. Shooting milk jugs with my 629 .44 mag stoked with hp reloads is a hoot. Double action. Easy to see my results too. After blowing them up, I switch to shooting 16 oz plastic soda bottles, also filled with water.
I can and do shoot any double action revolver more accurately then any of my autoloaders.
But I spend most of my time shooting 7 to 15 yards with my pistols. If you are going to get in a gunfight, it will most likely be close. And the one who gets the first accurate shots in generally wins.
But for the most part, I just shoot because I enjoy it.
 
#190 ·
I've been reviewing a lot of threads lately regarding accuracy in defensive pistols due to my participation in GSSF indoor matches, which require shooting a stock Glock at 25yds, off-hand.

I've noticed a lot of dismissive comments by a number of people whenever someone asks about accuracy.

The most common comments are things like, "Glocks(or any defensive handgun) are defensive pistols and there is no need for it to be accurate beyond 7-10yds..." "Glocks aren't accurate", "Glocks are more accurate than most shooters", "all ammo is more accurate than most shooters", "you need to practice and train rather than worry about accuracy", etc...

Of course common sense tells most of us that there are legitimate reasons for wishing to get the most accuracy out of our pistols as possible.

Common sense says that most shootings are at less than 10yds and that is the distance you should be most proficient at with your defensive handgun.

But common sense also says that defensive handguns are used for more than simply shooting quickly at 7-10yds and increased accuracy is a preferred trait in some applications. Some of us simply enjoy the challenge of making the smallest groups possible with their defensive handguns.

Which is why there are a number of threads focused on the accuracy potential of handguns and their ammunition.

And in every thread there are the previously mentioned comments.

I know that 98% of people posting here aren't mentally retarded and are able to read English and understand what has just been communicated.

So why make comments that defy common sense and in a lot of cases insult or attack the person asking about accuracy?

My theory is because those people can't shoot worth a damn and have such an inferiority complex about it that they feel the need to attack and belittle others.

Or they make excuses as to why pursuing greater accuracy is a waste of time.

Their excuses and comments are so transparent that it's laughable and pathetic.

So, when someone is asking about accuracy and you feel inadequate and your manhood threatened by your lack of shooting skills, please refrain from making idiotic comments in those threads.
My first handgun purchase was completely decided by favorable gun reviews and a low price. A then brand new to the marketplace Kel-Tec P11. It was the darling of every magazine writer when first introduced. I took that sucker out to the range and I couldn't put a bullet on paper. I reread every magazine and determined that I must've bought a defect. I took a buddy to the range and he put 10 rounds in 6 inch groups. My heart sunk. The gun didn't suck, I did... More practice I thought. I put a lot of money down that barrel. Very dependable gun it was, so was my poor shot. The safest place a man could stand was at the end of my barrel, that kind of bad. One day I got to shoot a single action handgun, I put the first round on the X. I put 9 more within 3 inches. I'd been cured until I picked up the Kel-Tec, the paper was safe. I've picked up several of those ugly Glocks and their striker fired actions, I can get on paper and some might even say I'm "defensive" enough with one. But I still can't fire double action anything! I've determined that I'm a single action shooter. I prefer a Taurus 92 over about anything, and yes I've handled many handguns triple the price. I notice when I go the range, most folks blame the ammo for their poor performance. "Well I couldn't find my regular brand..." I remind them I'm a terrible shot and would do much worse if I'd been squeezing the trigger. I just lucked into finding a gun my finger liked. You're right about excuses being very transparent. I helped a friend purchase their first handgun. Before he went off to the store, we went to the range. I took single, double action and striker fired for their consideration. They liked striker fired and bought striker fired. I wish someone had done the same for me.
 
#192 ·
My opinion is that a good percentage of the best shooters started out shooting Bullseye 2700 matches at 25 - 50 yards. About 35 years ago Handgun Metallic Silhouette became popular. It was shot at 100yds offhand. Then NRA Long Range Handgun Silhouette came along. It was shot at 200 yards offhand with a handgun. It was nearly always the top Bullseye shooters that won the long range silhouette matches too because they had mastered trigger control and sight alignment. Today, I see so many shooters who start out trying to shoot fast - then trying to improve accuracy... I may be old school but I still believe all good handgun shooting has to start with the fundamentals of trigger control and sight alignment. Not just starting at the 7 yard range and trying to shoot fast.
 
#193 ·
#201 · (Edited)
Personally, I don't think a shooter's skill is well rounded until they can hit decent with a handgun at 50 yards.
Like my friend's daughter here, that I taught to shoot, seldom missing a white 12 inch steel plate at 50 yards.

I have such confidence in her, that's my tractor to the right of the target. :)

Shooting Dirt road Shooting range Soil Shooting sport



She also does well with a AR.

Cap Soil Baseball cap Machine gun Air gun
 
#209 · (Edited)
Deleted.
 
#210 ·
Man-o-man, you guys know how to make a recreational shooter with aged eyes and likewise shot placement feel inadequate. I just like to shoot a variety of guns for fun and enjoyment. Given the speculative scenarios and low expectations of LE skill levels presented in some of these posts, one would think hiring armed security is a viable option in order to safely conduct daily routines.

I tote a carry gun to help extract me from potential violent and life threatening situations. I'm aware of my capabilities, limits and fully recognize a well trained thug will outshoot and most likely dominate in a head banging physical confrontation. However, meeting a disciplined and practiced criminal will be improbable because I'm not a high value target worthy of their interests. More than likely, I'll be involved in a crime of opportunity by a street punk who I believe I can match or prevail in firearm abilities. Whether I'd actually use a gun for self defense is another question. Break into my occupied house is a whole different matter and will be met with extreme prejudice.

I don't shoot handguns much past 25 yards and don't feel the need to prove I'm a bad shot, I already know that. And no, I don't have the desire to practice more to improve my long distance skills, I'm a recreational shooter just enjoying the day at the range.



Then again, I purposely moved to a small town with low crime rates. I don't carry much cash and generally maintain adequate situational awareness. I don't frequent questionable establishments and places where I'd rub elbows with savory types. I did that kind of stuff when I was younger, unsuspecting and foolish. Now I much older and still foolish, but in different kind of ways.

Self defense is much more than the availability of a firearm, it's always the very last and unavoidable choice.






Lookin' good. Nice shooting.
 
#213 ·
Not in my experience; but the women I teach are all new to the sport. They are definitely more "teachable" than men as they have no bad habits and pick it up quicker.

wp
 
#214 ·
O
If there isn't adequate cover was the disclaimer of my post if you read it again. I don't care what they are shooting
If there isn't adequate cover was the disclaimer of my post if you read it again. I don't care what they are shooting at me with.
Understood. I am still shooting at 25 yards. Self defense to me means "Save my life" So I am simply saying, if I feel threatened to the point of pulling my firearm, I will be discharging it.

When I hit the range, I start at 10 and then progress to 25 in 5 yards increments. Of course Im a better shot at 10 than 25. I also believe that the better you are at 25 yards multiples your success at 10 yards. I have always practiced this way. I have even upgraded three of my handguns from the Trijicon HDS to the HD-XR version to help at 25 yards. Which it does.

I do feel that some people should just not comment at all. My "Gen 5 wear" thread was filled with a crap load of stupid comments by those who clearly didnt even read the thread.

my 2 cents

Thx
 
#217 ·
Personally, I don't think a shooter's skill is well rounded until they can hit decent with a handgun at 50 yards.
Like my friend's daughter here, that I taught to shoot, seldom missing a white 12 inch steel plate at 50 yards.

I have such confidence in her, that's my tractor to the right of the target. :)

View attachment 352276


She also does well with a AR.

View attachment 352278
Yeah, I like to teach Women and kids.

View attachment 352286



You're a GOOD man, Buck!!!!!!


Seriously.
 
#235 ·
I'm trying to drag them in with "bait and switch" and you're " truth in advertising ".


:supergrin:

wp
 
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