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NAA Black Widow vs. G42 vs. G43 vs. Shield45 vs. G20

4K views 25 replies 10 participants last post by  ChuteTheMall 
#1 · (Edited)
Some of my previous testing:

My first test:
Getting a sense for 380 vs 9mm in different barrel lengths

https://www.glocktalk.com/threads/quick-ballistics-test-g42-vs-g26-vs-g34.1654105/

Testing different 380 rounds

https://www.glocktalk.com/threads/quick-g42-and-g26-ballistic-testing-hot-ammo.1658862/

Compilation thread. There are some fruit shooting videos here too.

https://www.glocktalk.com/threads/quick-compilation-of-g42-ammo-testing-including-new-p.1659345/

Denim testing

https://www.glocktalk.com/threads/quick-compilation-of-g42-ammo-testing-including-new-p.1659345/#post-24144777

Ham shooting for simulated chest

https://www.glocktalk.com/threads/final-g42-ballistic-testing-xtp-over-xd.1661502/

8 layer denim failure test
https://www.glocktalk.com/threads/g42-hollow-point-failure-test-8-layers-denim.1662442/

Testing various small pistol calibers

https://www.glocktalk.com/threads/glock-42-vs-43-ballistic-test-9x17-vs-9x18-vs-9x19.1664990/

Through the testing, I have picked ammunition and pistol combinations that I feel serve the niches that I set out to cover.

So the test today is to get a sense of "what do they do in various comparative media?"

And to have some fun. :D

I had some scrap wood and a full battery in my portable saw so built a testing rig with various elements: From right to left:

2 layers of denim: clothes
Leather and neoprene rubber: skin
1" Modeling clay: muscle
2 cedar planks: bone
Sponge: misc connective tissue
Canned Spam: heart or other organ
And then the reverse. Note, I put the terminal cedar on the back side of the clay (because I goofed).

Brown Tan Beige Slipper Wedge


On to the demonstration:


22 WMR Gold Dot (short barrel). 40gr. 2" barrel of NAA Black Widow. My "not a gun" gun pocket carry BUG.
Musical instrument accessory Boot Plastic Shotgun


And the Spam exit

Cuisine Dish Wood stain Peach Tin


The G42 in 380 ACP with Underwood +P XTP (wife's off body carry).

Tan Trigger Gun accessory Air gun Gun barrel


And its Spam exit

Peach Recipe Plastic bag Plastic Cork

Then the G43 with Speer Gold Dot 124gr +P (9mm) (my weekend IWB carry).

Box


And Spam exit

Wood Food Hardwood Ingredient Cuisine


And then to my favorite current EDC, the Shield 45 with Federal 230gr HST.

Soil Air gun Trigger Gun accessory Plastic


Top view of the Spam.

Wood Ingredient Food Hardwood Cuisine


And my RV / high threat gun. G20 (10mm) with 180gr Underwood Gold Dot.

Gun Trigger Air gun Gun accessory Airsoft gun


This is the Spam from above (shot with the 10mm). The 45 cal looked similar with lids blown off of both.

Cuisine Food Dish Soil Ingredient


That's about what I expected and consistent with previous tests.

Impression: with excellent shot placement, even a 22 WMR in 2" barrel can deliver a wound to a vital area. But using a larger, hotter round obviously allows you to make a bigger hole and not be quite as precise. Duh. Nothing really earth shattering here. I just like seeing it in visuals I can understand and compare.

I was curious to see what the extracted bullets looked like... and to have a more easily identifiable representation of wound cavity and energy delivery.

Yes, I know that modeling clay is not ballistic gel. But it's another way to illustrate the differences in energy transfer. That's why the Spam is in between clay bricks.
 
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#2 · (Edited)
Exit wounds only shown (all rounds at least entered the second clay).

Tan Khaki Beige Material property Ammunition

Extracted round on the left.
Revolver Gun accessory Ammunition Trigger Drill



G42
Gun Firearm Trigger Gun accessory Gun barrel

Really consistent expansion for the hot loaded XTP.
Gun Trigger Gun accessory Tan Gun barrel



G43
Gun Trigger Grey Gun accessory Air gun

Nice, consistent expansion in the 124gr +P 9mm
Gun Firearm Trigger Gun accessory Ammunition


Huge cavity for the 45 Shield, but the trade off for expansion is penetration.

It didn't make it through the second clay block.

Gun Firearm Trigger White Gun accessory


Massive expansion, though.

Gun Firearm Trigger Gun accessory Gun barrel


And then the champ. G20 in 10mm... has penetration and expansion.

Gun Firearm Trigger Gun accessory Air gun
Gun Firearm Trigger Gun accessory Gun barrel


Comparative sizes and appearance of the extracted rounds.

Invertebrate Ceramic Collection Insect Natural material


I was interested to see the performance of my carry firearms and ammunition in compound media testing. The results were consistent with the previous melon testing and I was pleased that my choices did what I expected of them. I enjoyed seeing the illustration of those differences in this composite testing. Hope you enjoyed it too!
 
#4 ·
Cool write up, and I like the test rig. That said, the 180 Gold Dot has been my EDC load for several years. It'll be hard to take it's crown. For tough tissue tests, I'm told gummy bears makes for a nice block, and doesn't need refrigerated. Easy to recycle too. Looking forward to trying it myself this year.
 
#5 ·
Gummy bears would smell great! The Spam smells better than the canned ham I was shooting before. That's one of the reasons I incorporated sponges on this test... to filter / grab some of the debris before it got to the clay.

Overall, I used modeling clay because it is a very good illustrator of energy delivery "frozen in time" and much easier to compare than fracture patterns in gel.

Obviously the cavity is exaggerated compared to muscle tissue with elastic "bounce back" properties, but that's why there's Spam (for homogeneity) encased in a metal tin in between the clay blocks.

The results were very consistent with melon testing results. I ran out of time that day (family commitments), but I plan on repeating the tests with the fluted rounds in 380 and 10mm. Maybe with a FMJ comparison.

The nice thing about modeling clay is it's easy to reuse. Gel is a little bit of a PITA because you have to cut out debris from wound tracts and remelt the block (making denim and wood tests a pain).

Note that in the composite setup, the 22WMR, 380 and 45 all had similar penetration stopping in the back "muscle." That's consistent with 12-14" inches in my bare gel testing. Rounds that went 16"+ in bare gel also made it through the second clay block.

I'm pretty happy with the scaling of the test. I try and set up the barriers to have test resolution within the last real item of material. If I set up a test against just paper targets, you couldn't tell the difference between calibers. If I set it as AR550 steel, it'd also be hard to tease out. My big issue with ballistic gel alone is that it favors only penetration and expansion / energy delivery is hard to judge. This was a nice "zoom in" on the wound tracts, I thought. With a Spam internal control!
 
#8 ·
I think there are a few tests of those out there. I don't have a chrono and have a hard time contextualizing numbers without a visual of what they can do. Because velocities only mean something in the context of the size and type of bullet, I have a hard time getting into a simple parameter. IMHO it's kind of like "distance in ballistic gel..." it's a number that only means something in the context of the size/shape/weight of the bullet.

For example, the Liberty Civil Defense I tested in 10mm. It goes hella fast (2400 fps!!) but because it's a 60gr bullet it is pretty wimpy and you'd take the 180gr 1300 fps Gold Dot instead.

But a Speer Gold Dot soft tip in 223 is 64gr and goes ~3000 fps. But those 600 fps matter a lot because the damage done with a rifle Gold Dot and a 10mm Civil Defense is quite a bit different.

And 45 cal bullets are quite slow. But they're large. So chrono numbers are too dependent on other factors to get to the crux of what I want to know.

I did test the NAA in different barrel lengths on the same day as the clay test:
Wood Audio equipment Technology Hardwood Steel


Handwriting Still life photography Cylinder Writing Pottery


When I was reading sources online, the Pug might only get 800 fps or so. Going up to the 1.6" barrel picks up velocities to 1000 or so.

To me, it looks like velocities didn't pick up that much with the Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel going from 2" to 4". That might change if I used something designed for rifles.

My impression is that the Pug loses a TON of oomph compared to the longer barrels. It NEVER expands AND it goes shorter distance in gel meaning that has quite a bit less velocity.

The amount of unburnt powder that spews forth from the Pug is incredible. But it is super convenient. I still carry it when I really, really don't think I'm going to need anything. And I feel lazy. The 1.6" is a meaningful step up in ballistics. The 2" gives additional margin for error. It expands the Gold Dot pretty consistently. The picture above has distance in bare gel hand written.
 
#10 ·
With the 22 magnum, didn't you do an earlier test where you used the 22 WMR 45 gr FT Critical Defense ammo an got slightly better results (better expansion maybe) than the gold dot ammo?

I was happy to see those results you got with different barrel lengths because I have a High Standard 2 shot 22 mag DA Derringer and it has long enough barrels to get some decent velocity according to your tests.

I was carrying the gold dot ammo but now I want to getsome of the 45 grain critical defense for it.

Hornady claims 1000fps /100 fpe out of a 1 7/8ths barrel.
 
#11 ·
I was carrying the gold dot ammo but now I want to getsome of the 45 grain critical defense for it.

Hornady claims 1000fps /100 fpe out of a 1 7/8ths barrel.
I got an average of 846 FPS from the Hornady Critical Defense FTX out of my one inch Pug barrel. I could only get 6 shots to register. Two shots could not be verified by the Oehler proof channel, but they actually raised the average, so I left them in the totals. (These little guns with minimal sights and tiny bullets are hard to shoot over skyscreens.) However, I got a few misfires with the ammo and decided that I would not use CD in that particular gun. I am pretty confident they will work in larger firearms. YMMV.
 
#14 ·
Wow, man that is so wrong their are a lot of people who love to eat a sandwich of that Spam.:supergrin:
 
#17 ·
Ever looked at the ballistics tests done by NAA?
https://northamericanarms.com/ballistics/

That said, I'm going to be sending my 1 1/8" standard MAG back to them for a 1 5/8" barrel.

It'll fit the same length pocket holsters I have, and I might as well get the half inch longer barrel. It won't be the same as my 2" BW, but it'll be half an inch closer than the 1 1/8" barrel.
 
#18 ·
Ever looked at the ballistics tests done by NAA?
https://northamericanarms.com/ballistics/

That said, I'm going to be sending my 1 1/8" standard MAG back to them for a 1 5/8" barrel.

It'll fit the same length pocket holsters I have, and I might as well get the half inch longer barrel. It won't be the same as my 2" BW, but it'll be half an inch closer than the 1 1/8" barrel.
I think that's where I was getting my velocity ranges. But I didn't know what those velocities really meant in the context of the bullet.

45 cal goes that slowly and those are fine.... so I tested and was depressed by the 1" Pug and tried to get the 1-5/8ths NAA up to speed, but I needed a better sight. Then got the 4" sidewinder as the extreme comparison and the 2" Black Widow as an upgrade option to the 1-5/8th Mini Mag.

I've just resigned myself that if I'm carrying the Pug, I'm going to treat it like I don't have a gun and only use it to help create distance / diversion as I run away from the bad guy. Even with the Black Widow, I'd be better off trying to get a 380 working for better ballistics.
 
#20 ·
Ever looked at the ballistics tests done by NAA?
https://northamericanarms.com/ballistics/

That said, I'm going to be sending my 1 1/8" standard MAG back to them for a 1 5/8" barrel.

It'll fit the same length pocket holsters I have, and I might as well get the half inch longer barrel. It won't be the same as my 2" BW, but it'll be half an inch closer than the 1 1/8" barrel.
Wise decision going to a longer barrel. I don't see that it makes the gun any more difficult to conceal.

The NAA ballistics figures are useful but I couldn't get the link to work on my computer so I googled Ballistics Tables – North American Arms and got this, which appears to be the same link.

https://northamericanarms.com/ballistics/
 
#21 · (Edited)
Wise decision going to a longer barrel. I don't see that it makes the gun any more difficult to conceal.

The NAA ballistics figures are useful but I couldn't get the link to work on my computer so I googled Ballistics Tables – North American Arms and got this, which appears to be the same link.

https://northamericanarms.com/ballistics/
Same link. Takes me to the same page.

I'd have bought the 1 5/8" barreled model from the get-go if I'd thought about it a little more when I ordered mine through a local cop shop. I didn't think of it, but just told them to order the standard 1 1/8" MAG model, since I already had the 1 1/8" LR version.

It was a little later, when looking at some of what was becoming possible with the 2" barrel in the BW (looking at what Speer released regarding their .22MAG GDHP designed around the 2" barreled snub), that I started to wish I'd just gone ahead and ordered the 1 5/8" model. (Speer stated, however, when I emailed them, that none of their factory testing had been done with their .22 MAG GDHP load with any barrel length shorter than 2", and couldn't offer any offer regarding the 1 5/8" NAA model.)

So, I ordered the BW Combo (both cylinders) & replaced that odd set of over-size BW grip stocks with the smaller and less gaudy pebbled rubber slip on grip ... and decided to call NAA and ask about having the short barrel replaced with the longer one on my standard MAG. They seemed quite agreeable, and the cost was absurdly reasonable, so I'll drop it off at the gun dealer sometime as I get down to that spot on my To-Do list. ;)

Note that I'm NOT denigrating the PUG 1" model. Not at all. The little MAG barrel still offers some additional MV, in some loads, compared to the short LR, and in the world of itty bitty .22's that little added MV might increase potential penetration depth/wounding effect. I'd still consider it to have an advantage over a vest pocket sized .25 and the short .22LR model.

It's apparently meant to appeal to someone who wanted something with more interesting eye appeal than the standard 1 1/8" model. ;)
 
#23 ·
It might not penetrate the sternum.

When I tested the 1.6" Mini Magnum against the 3/4" Oak and 2" ballistic gel with a canned ham in back of it, some of the shots didn't make it into the canned ham (heart) and were basically out of energy after the wood and gel.

That's the reason I set the 1.6" barrel as the bare minimum ballistically knowing that the 1" Pug has far less energy than that. If I get around to it, I'll take a shot or two through the rig with the Pug. But on the new setup, I would expect it to get stuck in the first clay block and not make it into the Spam.

If you were able to get in between a rib, then for sure it would go through rib meat, lung and through the heart. But I wouldn't count on it getting through bone with any velocity left to penetrate organs.

I like the Pug very much and still do carry it as a BUG. But I picked up the 2" Black Widow because it has pretty good sights too.
 
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