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Thumbs forward

7K views 69 replies 46 participants last post by  The Fist Of Goodness 
#1 ·
I've been shooting for more years than I care to remember or talk about. How ever in the last few years I've heard and read this term "Thumbs Forward" I'm not sure why but willing to learn. So why??? Also about the same time I started hearing and reading complaints about premature slide lock, failure to return to battery, and fail to feed because someone's thumb pushed up on the slide release or applied a little drag to the slide. I've never heard of "Thumbs Forward" on wrenches, hammers, ball bats. Someone please explain to me why you would use such a halfway grip on something you intend to use to save your butt. This is a serious question but I will probably still catch grief so Let The Games Begin.
 
#39 ·
What metrics are people judging by? Slow fire at 7 yards? Slow fire at 25 yards? Are people putting any of this on the clock? The two things that never lie are the target and the clock. I'm faster AND more accurate with thumbs forward, particularly on multi-shot strings.

I just wonder, as people talk about how "unrealistic" gaming and such are, are these same people just sort of believing they are better with some other grip, or are they challenging themselves with F.A.S.T. and Bill Drills?
 
#45 ·
Right. Anyone who doesn't do it your way is an inexperienced idiot who can't shoot.
It's not the right way because I do it; I do it because it's the right way. And I didn't call anyone an idiot. People who understand how to shoot pistols well freestyle generally grip them with their thumbs pointing toward the target - because that is what works best.
 
#48 ·
I don't use thumbs forward, but I understand why others do.

1. You are trying to apply even pressure on both sides of the gun, trying to get as much surface area as possible from your hands onto the gun.

2. You are trying to point with your thumb, to help with the aiming process.

3. You are trying to rotate your wrist forward into a locked position to reduce the recoil.

Now the negatives, and the reasons I don't do it.
1. Thumbs forward can be dangerous with a revolver (because of hot cylinder gap gas), and so if you switch back and forth between revolvers and semi-autos, the thumbs forward can be a bad habit.

2. Thumbs forward weakens a one-handed grip, and I prefer that my firing hand grab the grip the same way whether I'm going to use one or two hands.

3. Pointing with my thumb is not something I naturally do, and I do not like that much rotation forward with my wrist.

4. The thumb forward can cause a jam, can slow the slide, can hit slide release, etc.

5. I shoot just fine, to my own satisfaction, with thumbs somewhat down :)
I do the same thing. Been shooting revolvers since the sixties and the only pistol I shot until about 15 years ago was an Army 45 ACP. After trying to shoot with an awkward hold - thumbs forward for several years I thought I just couldn't shoot a pistol. I couple of years ago I discovered a thumbs down hold that works for me.
There is more than one way to skin a cat.
 
#49 ·
I'd just like to give everyone here a big thumb's up! Er, unless they prefer thumbs down.

But seriously, I'm glad this topic came up as I'm struggling with this thumbs forward technique. I THINK thumbs forward is helping me with recoil control and I'm shooting more accurately (when I'm shooting at the range at a static target without the stress of a timer), but I now have to practice enough to incorporate it into my "street" stance/draw from holster.

For me, I think it will be worth the effort to learn a new grip as it is showing promise. But right now it doesn't feel natural or comfortable for me and I REALLY have to think about it and concentrate. I'm also finding the support hand thumb making contact with the slide. I usually carry a G43, so it's easy for me to make this mistake on these smaller guns. And, in my dry fire drills, I'm still reverting back to my old support thumb up in the air, partially squeezing my shooting hand about a third of the time.

Also, as already mentioned, because a hostile encounter could involve using the support arm/hand to block an attacker OR one is surprised and has to shoot with one hand, I think that if I ever have to use my weapon in a SD situation I'll be pulling my covering garment up with the support hand and shooting one handed. Hours of training might allow me to be as fast using both hands, but I'm a long way from being there.
 
#51 ·
It works.

I've been shooting handguns since 1961. When I started, guys were still clenching their left fist and putting it over their heart in the "FBI Crouch". I learned Weaver and shot that way for decades. This winter I began dry fire practice using the New Modern Technique, or thumbs forward. The first match this year, without firing a single round since the last match last fall, I improved my score by a good margin, enough to achieve the first of the goals I set when I got back into shooting after getting the girls through college.

This is the video that convinced me to try it. He plays around at first, but when he gets to explaining after about a minute and a half, it makes sense and it works.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChSazF41q-s


I still have a long way to go, but this is the stance and grip I will be using from now on, and after being stalled for two years, I feel like I am improving again.
Yes that is a great video. That is what talked me into trying thumbs forward. I'm a believer.

If you do what Jerry Miculek does its hard to go wrong.
 
#52 ·
I hope I never get to the point where I can't/won't try something new.

His entire concept is in line with the KISS principle. Nothing you don't need, everything you do to score hits on targets in the widest possible arc in the least time.
 
#53 ·
So, Handy, and all the rest of you casual shooters, ie, non-competitors, why do you think that all the USPSA/IPSC/Steel Challenge and 3 Gun Grand Masters use the thumbs forward grip??? Because that's what works the best, works best meaning the fastest and most accurate.

Yea, it only matters if you want to shoot faster and more accurately. You'll never see that shooting at a static box target from behind a bench while standing still....

Hold your gun like this for the best control. Of the younger Grand Masters, Vogel has the most roll forward grip. The older Grand Masters had a little less left forward, like Leatham.





 
#59 ·
So, Handy, and all the rest of you casual shooters, ie, non-competitors, why do you think that all the USPSA/IPSC/Steel Challenge and 3 Gun Grand Masters use the thumbs forward grip???
Because it works very well for competing when you always have two hands. Other things that work great are mag well funnels, compensators, optics, special holsters, long barrels and Coolmax jerseys.

No one is arguing that it doesn't work very well when you are completely in control of the situation - as a competitor or door kicker is.

The counterpoint is that other techniques can be made to work about as well, adapt better to one handed use and better avoid gun malfunctions by staying clear of the moving bits. For those of us more invested in the "casual" art of self defense, there is a value in those things that slightly lower split times doesn't necessarily make worth trading away.
 
#55 · (Edited)
I've used both grips over the years and found as my hands got older thumbs forward gave me better control and accuracy. But, I think it's more because I can lock my left wrist better(I'm righty) and my hands are medium sized and I don't seem to have any problem with slide drag. Helps in quickly re-acquiring target for me. So, I think hand size may be a substantial determining factor in which way you hold your pistol, and your pistol size as well. Maybe it's just me but I feel more balanced with thumbs forward. I'm going to try both next time at range just to see. Interesting question, though. Like most things, it's an individual comfort selection. I've never shot competition, I shoot for fun and for self-defense and I like burning powder! :fred:
 
#56 ·
I switched to thumbs forward, and a more "fighting stance" with my feet about 2 years ago. Took awhile to get used to, and lots of dry fire practice, but no doubt I am getting better results. This is after decades of modified Weaver and LEO, SWAT, and LEO competition.

Whatever floats the boat, but I do get a higher grip on back strap. I now use on pistols and revolvers and is very natural at this point.
 
#57 · (Edited)
Here is essentially what my friend (recently retired lead firearms instructor FBI Louisville) advised me as to the "thumbs forward" grip:

Attached are photos I took using my plastic orange G19 for demo purposes.

IMG_0003 shows my right (strong) hand only. The webbing between my thumb and forefinger is high as possible on the backstrap to control muzzle flip and put the pivot point of the gun in line with the barrel. I usually use the take-down indentation to index my forefinger when it's not on the trigger. Grip is firm, but only accounts for %40 percent or so of a two-handed grip.

IMG_0004 shows my right (strong) hand from the other side. My thumb is aligned along the frame, just below the slide stop lever. A common shooting error with this grip is to align the thumb too high, thus pressing up on the slide stop and causing the slide to lock back even though the magazine has remaining rounds. The empty space on the grip between my thumb/heel and finger tips is where you'll place the heel of your left hand.

IMG_0006 shows both hands on the weapon. The heel of the left hand is placed in the empty space on the grip and the fingers of the left hand wrap around the front of the grip and fill the spaces between the right hand fingers. The left thumb is aligned along the frame, just under the right thumb. Be careful not to press up on the left thumb. That will cause the malfunction noted above. The left hand grip should put approximately 60% of the pressure on the weapon and should feel as if the right and left hands are pressing together in a "clamshell" grip. Less pressure on the right hand will help control sympathetic movement (milking) of the right hand while pressing the trigger. This posture may be uncomfortable at first because of the angled position of the left hand.

IMG_0005 shows both hands on the weapon, from the top.

Please don't hesitate to return email with any questions!
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Dennis J. Dvorjak
FBI Special Agent (Retired)
Lead Instructor
Bluegrass Precision Tactical LLC
Cell : 270-312-4841

Email : djdvorjak@gmail.com
Web : https://kyfirearmsandtactics.com
 

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#58 ·
Depends on the gun. I use it for Glock and steyr pistols, but generally lock thumbs down for the 1911 to insure grip safety is disenagegd and especially Makarov to clear the slide safety. Same with revolvers for reasons Ithaca explained.
Berto - You shoot a Steyr? How do you like, been thinking about adding one of a Grand Power to my collection.

BTW - my revolvers, I cross my thumbs on the backstrap. Semi-autos - Still playing a little, might try the grip that was pictured above on the 92.
 
#60 ·
Crossed my thumbs on revolver blackstrap too, but haven't owned or shot one in many years. Semi-autos are a different animal and required different thinking for me.
 
#63 ·
Thumbs forward, or actually support hand thumb WAY forward, seems to be all the rage now. All the popular kids are doing it. It's like the new, hip, cool way to hold your pistol. Kinda like the AR15 now, by grabbing the front of the handgard as close to flash hider as you can get, with your thumb wrapped over the top. Guess you can use your knuckle hair for the front sight post.

As for me, who cares if i do it thumbs together on a pistol, or hand on the bottom of AR handgard around mid way.

To be really cool you need to post your thumbs on spacebook or wherever all the cool kids are posting these days. Im not that cool yet, but i am deadly accurate with my old thumbs.
 
#65 ·
From everything I'd read over the years the "thumbs forward" grip was developed by 1911 shooters so their strong hand thumb rested on top of the safety, instead of underneath, so recoil wouldn't inadvertently flick the safety back on due to movement or recoil. Makes sense to me since a thumbs forward grip Is uncomfortable and loose feeling - to me. I never did see any practical reason to use it unless you just plain liked it.
 
#68 ·
I grew up shooting revolvers and using the traditional thumbs down grip. In my early 20's I acquired my first semi-auto, a 1911. I naturally began using a thumbs forward grip. It's what feels natural to me and works best for me with an auto. Wheel guns still get the thumbs down grip. I have no issues with the grip, be it strong hand, weak hand, odd positions, etc.

I became a police officer in 2009 and thumbs forward was the grip taught at the academy and still is.




With a proper thumbs forward grip on 1911 your strong hand thumb should be on top of the thumb safety, not below it.
 
#69 ·
I have been shooting handguns for over 30 years. I went to a tactical handgun training course and learned the thumbs forward technique and for me personally it made me a better shooter. I had to practice to overcome training scares. All in all I am better now and have more confidence. Any pistol I pick up I can run effectively.
 
#70 ·
I don't use thumbs forward, but I understand why others do.

1. You are trying to apply even pressure on both sides of the gun, trying to get as much surface area as possible from your hands onto the gun.

2. You are trying to point with your thumb, to help with the aiming process.

3. You are trying to rotate your wrist forward into a locked position to reduce the recoil.

Now the negatives, and the reasons I don't do it.
1. Thumbs forward can be dangerous with a revolver (because of hot cylinder gap gas), and so if you switch back and forth between revolvers and semi-autos, the thumbs forward can be a bad habit.

2. Thumbs forward weakens a one-handed grip, and I prefer that my firing hand grab the grip the same way whether I'm going to use one or two hands.

3. Pointing with my thumb is not something I naturally do, and I do not like that much rotation forward with my wrist.

4. The thumb forward can cause a jam, can slow the slide, can hit slide release, etc.

5. I shoot just fine, to my own satisfaction, with thumbs somewhat down :)
Re:#3 I specifically instruct my shooters to not modify their strong hand grip when using two hands with the thumbs fwd grip.

My own opinion is that thumbs fwd was devised to prevent LE shooters transitioning from revolvers to autos from crossing their support thumb over their strong side wrist and getting it caught by the slide.
 
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