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SHTF Gun: 9mm carbine vs .223 Rifle

73K views 261 replies 67 participants last post by  Big Bird 
#1 ·
I'm undecided. What's your choice for SHTF?

Carbine, like the Beretta Cx4: Very handy, you can carry more rounds but limited in range and more ineffective against body armor and different cover.

I'm not sure, if I would regret the choice for 9mm and better go to .223 or 7.62x39.
 
#75 ·
I'm sure door kickers being killed by people shot with three rounds of 9mm might be considered evil coming back, which was one of the reason for the move to 5.56 - increased likelihood of incapacitation. for essentially the same effort.

If effectiveness vs energy were plotted on a graph, 5.56 would be this anomalous spike, being so much more effective compared to its size and recoil. If the graph were more straight line, we could say that 5.56 is a worthwhile compromise between recoil and incapacitation, and go up or down the graph to consider other compromises. Instead, 5.56 in a short rifle is like shooting a subgun and getting the effects of a battle rifle. There is virtually no compromise.
Isn't that what I said?
 
#76 ·
Thanks for your answers.

I should have said, that I alredy own a .223 rifle, a Ruger Mini 14. But in my eyes, the Mini 14 isn't reliable enough for combat/SHTF. Especially at wet, muddy conditions and at snow (conditions we face nearly half of the year in Germany), so I want to replace it.

Years ago, I made some penetration tests with the .223 an I was a little disappointed, so this is one of the reasons for my question.
But I see that the advantages of .223 vs. the 9mm are still greater (especially the range), so I look for another rifle.

When I was conscripted to military services, more than 20 years ago, I got the 9mm Uzi smg as a PDW (Leopard 2 tank crew) and I loved it, but we never shot it at long range, we did CQB training only.
 
#77 ·
On the penetration aspect, the 556/223 is more ammo-dependent in that area than a lot of calibers; at least 'soft target' penetration. If more penetration is a goal, that's pretty easily doable; to the point of getting genuinely too much penetration if you go too far in one direction. Plain old 62-grain fmj from a 1:9 or 1:8 twist barrel that's 14"-16" long, will give more penetration on soft targets than I personally want.
 
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#78 ·
This thread is killing me. Different platforms, different purposes. I am now a collector. So I have more than I need for prepping.

Points.
#1. 9mm can kill are greater ranges than you can probably get hits. It has a 97% (or was it 99%?) one shot drop with premium ammo the last time I looked if you hit the target central mass. This is pistol stats. It has a nice big hole going in and out when using JHP.
#2. 5.56 is just as lethal as the 9mm.
#3. 9mm can be run subsonic with a suppressor. Nice a quiet. Kill a mime in a mall and no one knows.
#4. 5.56 can be AP ammo. If you have someone with body armor, you are pretty screwed with 9mm. In the EU maybe you can pick up some AP 9mm ammo. Then again, you are pretty screwed if someone is wearing the right body armor and you are using 5.56.
#5. 9mm should be SBR. This allows you to get in and out of vehicles quickly. Anything less than 14 inches is kind of stupid with 5.56 as it loses it's effectiveness very quickly.
#6. 5.56 is really nice if you have other people in the house. You can load up varmint rounds that enter and don't exit.
#7. Ammo storage and use. For practice, it matters. For SHTF, it really doesn't. The odds of you using 1K of ammo in a SHTF before you get killed is really slim. Hell, buy 2K of premium ammo and you will not run out of ammo before you are dead.

I don't have a scale, but I think 9mm weighs more than 5.56.
And of course 5.56 is larger.

The odds of needing a gun for SHTF is slim.
The odds of needing a rifle for SHTF is slimmer.
The odds of needing a rifle for SHTF sustained firepower is almost non-existent from where I am sitting. (But I have a couple of them....and enough ammo to keep things going for a while.)
 
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#79 ·
This thread is killing me. Different platforms, different purposes. I am now a collector. So I have more than I need for prepping.

Points.
#1. 9mm can kill are greater ranges than you can probably get hits. It has a 97% (or was it 99%?) one shot drop with premium ammo the last time I looked if you hit the target central mass. This is pistol stats. It has a nice big hole going in and out when using JHP.
#2. 5.56 is just as lethal as the 9mm.
#3. 9mm can be run subsonic with a suppressor. Nice a quiet. Kill a mime in a mall and no one knows.
#4. 5.56 can be AP ammo. If you have someone with body armor, you are pretty screwed with 9mm. In the EU maybe you can pick up some AP 9mm ammo. Then again, you are pretty screwed if someone is wearing the right body armor and you are using 5.56.
#5. 9mm should be SBR. This allows you to get in and out of vehicles quickly. Anything less than 14 inches is kind of stupid with 5.56 as it loses it's effectiveness very quickly.
#6. 5.56 is really nice if you have other people in the house. You can load up varmint rounds that enter and don't exit.
#7. Ammo storage and use. For practice, it matters. For SHTF, it really doesn't. The odds of you using 1K of ammo in a SHTF before you get killed is really slim. Hell, buy 2K of premium ammo and you will not run out of ammo before you are dead.

I don't have a scale, but I think 9mm weighs more than 5.56.
And of course 5.56 is larger.

The odds of needing a gun for SHTF is slim.
The odds of needing a rifle for SHTF is slimmer.
The odds of needing a rifle for SHTF sustained firepower is almost non-existent from where I am sitting. (But I have a couple of them....and enough ammo to keep things going for a while.)



''The odds of needing a gun for SHTF is slim.
The odds of needing a rifle for SHTF is slimmer.
The odds of needing a rifle for SHTF sustained firepower is almost non-existent from where I am sitting. (But I have a couple of them....and enough ammo to keep things going for a while.)''[/QUOTE]

How could you know this, just watch the news, not
just where you live but from around the world.

Here is some 223 data from short barrels,

http://www.accuratereloading.com/223sb.html

2600 to 2800 FPS from a 10'' barrel is pretty good.

Even a 9mm can be made to shoot through 1/4''
steel. Don't do it because that would be illegal.

I believe everyone should have both a good AR
and a good handgun, the handgun should be able
to shoot more than one or two different calibers.
 
#80 ·
I largely agree with the comments about "the odds of needing ______ in case of _____ situation" above being low, but one of my favorite comments is "it's not just about the odds; it's also about the stakes". If it were just about 'the odds', there would be no need for most preps to begin with. Guns, smoke detectors, vaccinations, fire extinguishers, whatever. Frankly, based on odds alone, on any given day there'd be pretty much no need to carry a spare tire or wear a seat belt. It's the rare, unlikely things that "get" us, usually not the things that 'likely' happen on any given day.

It's very easy to go overboard on some categories. Guns and other tactical stuff like night vision & such; we tend to overdo that, while often under-emphasizing the mundane stuff that's equally (or even more) likely to save our lives. Things from everyday topics like fitness, awareness, or smoke detectors; to genuine prep items like extra stocks of food and hygiene supplies, backup water treatment, etc.

Yes, I'm rambling and preaching. Point is imo (in regard to this thread topic), defense is an important category, but it's also just one of many categories. Have it covered with whatever gun works in your situation, and move on to whatever category you don't have covered. If you're comfortable with the state of all the categories, then go out & have a picnic or something fun. That's one thing that sheeple in general tend to to better than us preppers - they tend to have more enjoyment in their lives.
 
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#81 ·
Quake, very wise words.

When we started, we made the mistake of going overboard in one direction. After reading, researching, and talking to others, we came to the realization, a balanced approach is much more useful. We started over by listing the most common disaster/incident that could affect our family.

We then started preparing based on the list. Since then, we are much better prepared in lots of areas with the most common disasters being more of an inconvenience than a threat. (The top one on our list was power outage, we have a whole house generator, battery lights that come on when power goes out, and ways of cooking without power.)

We also expanded our list of potential disasters to include medical issues and financial issues. We have worked to prepare for those and other disasters. Our goal has been to be able to be self-sufficient for six months. In some areas we have made that goal, in other areas we still have work to do. One area that the family has been working on is getting physically fit. We are doing well in this area, but still a long ways of going. I'm down 37lbs, but have another 30 to go. My wife is down XXlbs and she is working out everyday. We both have improved to the point that walking longer distances and chores that we couldn't do a year ago is doable now.

So, I would recommend Quake's advise to try a balanced approach. Bring all aspects into your preparedness. Find which rifle setup works for your needs, but don't forget about the other items.
 
#83 ·
:supergrin: That's funny. I suspect most of us (myself included) are like that.
 
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#85 ·
How could you know this, just watch the news, not
just where you live but from around the world.

Watch the news.
Even in places which are in an active war, you can generally avoid it. Look at Ukraine. The conflict is only in a small area. There are people who live in that area who have seen the war around them and not gotten involved. (Of course there are places that you are better off running away.)

Then remember that the news isn't reporting all the people who had boring days. In all my years, I have yet to hear, Bob got up, went fishing, caught a fish, cleaned and cooked it. Bob didn't have a run in with any bears, snakes, or police officers.

Additionally, I am not saying not to have a gun. I am saying not to sacrifice everything in exchange to have lots of guns and ammo. The odds of needing them are not that great. The odds of needing money in the bank, food in storage, ....are much greater.

There are so many people I meet on gun forums with a prepper sub forum where all that people want to do is buy more and more guns and ammo and call it prepping.
 
#86 ·
As a prepper myself, I believe being educated is as important as (may be more so) than stockpiling survival equipment. I look at what is the most likely major threat we could face. In my opinion, it's The grid. Anyone remember the substation that was targeted in California (I believe) a few years ago? The fiber optic cables were cut and the cooling jackets for the transformers were shot causing a slow coolant(in this case oil) leak. The result was the whole substation went down some hours later. The perpetrators were never caught. Supposedly, there are 11 substations in the U.S. that are critical. If a group of terrorists knew which eleven to hit simultaneously, it would cause a cascade effect bringing down much of the grid. My wife and I have protocols we follow in the event of a power failure. We use occasional power failures to practice. Here's how it goes. First, check solar generator; is it working? If so that likely rules out an EMP attack. Turn on multi band radio. Check weather, AM,FM, aviation, and short wave bands. That also can help distinguish between an EMP attack or a grid failure. It also helps determine how widespread an outage your dealing with. From there, bring preps into play as determined by how large an outage problem you have.
 
#87 ·
In my old age, there is a whole lot to be said for the Pistol Caliber Carbine.

And of course, location, location, location. But for indoor/urban use, I'd say I'd take the 9mm Carbine all day long.

That said - why choose? One of each is even better. with matching 9mm pistol, of course. I think a lot of people grossly over-estimate the range of their SHTF encounters and seriously underestimate the extra zip you get from a 9mm, .40, .357 or whatever out of a 16" plus barrel.
 
#88 ·
In a SHTF situation I would not worry about what is legal and what is not. To misquote Chairman Mao "Power begins at the end of a gun."

In a SHTF situation I would try to avoid getting into a gunfight. However, if that fails, I would go for a 5.56 military quality semi-auto rifle less than 1 meter in length with 20 rd mags. I would also get a crowbar.

Late US experience in city fighting, Fallujah for example, has shown the AR type rifles work well. Granted in WWII US infantrymen took Aachen with long M1 Garand rifles and heavy Tommy guns. However, shorter rifles have replaced the Garand and Tommy guns in city and room combat. The rifles are effective.

The crowbar is used to raise manhole covers so that bodies can be dropped into the sewers. They tend to stink after awhile.
 
#91 ·
A friend of mine has a Thompson. Since I’m such a fan of WW2 movies, the first time I used it I expected to really like it but was actually disappointed. It functions fine, but for me personally the downsides outweighed its benefits. Right at 11 lbs empty (and nearly 13 with a 30-round magazine), the 'jumpy' feel of such a heavy mechanism using a blow-back operation from an open bolt, and (subjective) I just don't like the layout of the controls.

I wouldn’t necessarily have any trouble trusting the Thompson, but it’s not user-friendly for me personally and it just weighs a ton compared to what I’m used to. It was ground-breaking in its day (like the 1911 or the lever-action carbine), but I’m spoiled I guess and prefer something lighter & simpler. Not knocking it – as with the 1911 or ’92 carbine, I’d trust it – but it’s not my preference. If I had to pick from WW2-era guns, it would absolutely be the M1 carbine. Size of a 10-22, surprisingly soft shooting with the gas piston system (mine have been used completely comfortably by 9-year-old girls), yet putting out the power of a .44 magnum revolver. That’s some good stuff there. Now that we have actual testing media instead of gun-store-commando anecdotes about how “the .30 carbine won’t penetrate a wool coat” and other such nonsense, the only thing the .30C has going against it is that the ammo and guns in the caliber aren’t the bargains they used to be. I bought two of them around 15 years ago for $159 and $169, and at that time was buying winchester & federal ball ammo over the counter for $9.99 per 50, and JHP’s & JSP’s for $12.99 per 50. Now wish I’d bought ten of them.
 
#92 ·
It is ok to slam the Thompson a little, it
was good in its day.

If the Thompson was that good, we would still be
using it.

Too many people don't know what an AR can
do, at long and close range.

With soft points and the longer and heavier
bullets, it works good at six hundred yards
and for 200 yard deer hunting, I know this
not from reading about it but from doing it.
 
#93 ·
The interesting thing is how everyone, myself included, tries to justify our choice(s), when in reality, I only have to be happy with my choice (ok, my wife has to be happy (happy wife, happy life)).

With that being said, it is interesting hearing why different ones pick certain setups. Hopefully none of us will ever have to find out how good our choice(s) was.
 
#94 ·
As Aceman said above, about "in my old age"... I'm not nearly as monogamous about my gun choices as I used to be. Up into the 1980's, it was absolutely nothing but .45acp autos or magnum revolvers for me; period. Anything else was dismissed out of hand as inherently 'less', based largely on my ignorance and biases. To some degree it made sense as our ammo options weren't nearly as good back then as nowadays, but still it was primarily arrogant, pontifical bias on my part.

Now, I'm completely happy with any of a bunch of options. I still have preferences, but have gradually accepted that in a lot of cases personal preference is no more than that - personal preference. Give me a decent load in any of the major service calibers and I'm happy nowadays. I've accepted that if a goblin puts a ~1000 fps pistol bullet into my sternum, it doesn't hugely matter if that bullet is 0.35, 0.40, or 0.45 inches in diameter. And if it's true when the bullet is travelling in my direction, logic dictates that it's equally true going in the other direction.
 
#96 ·
AR 45, or as I call mine: Thumper (has a distinctive sound). Kind of expensive to build, but glad I did.
 
#100 ·
Cast bullets were mentioned above. It is much easier to make cast bullets for the 9mm. During the panics, I always had plenty of ammo. For practice I use a 160 gr RN cast in 9mm. The flat nosed cowboy bullets also work. The 160 gr loads goes about 1000 fps in the carbine and I can load about 2000 rounds with a pound of powder.
 
#103 ·
I am thinking if you carry something the size of a rifle, it should have the power of a rifle. But then again, you think that it would be nice to have a rifle and handgun in the same caliber to that you don't have to carry two different kinds of ammo.

Then again, I also think a 22 rifle with a 9mm pistol or a 22 pistol with a 5.56 carbine.
 
#106 · (Edited)
In an urban setting, where shorter ranges and CQB are the order of the day, a compact 9mm carbine is an excellent option.

Pistol "sounding" shots are a lot less likely to attract attention in a city than rifle blasts. This is true in many cities even today, let alone in SHTF situations. Stick a suppressor on your 9mm carbine and you're starting to get MUCH less noticeable.

A good PCC should be useable one handed (this rules out most AR-pattern PCCs). It will be much more maneuverable and easy to use indoors.

Your PCC will put a lot more heat on a 9mm round. You'll be getting almost 500 ft/lbs based on testing done by one of our Glock-talkers. That's a big increase in energy and effective range. Good if all you can find is 9mm ammo. In a city, LOTS of people will have a 9mm pistol and some ammo for it.

If you only need one type of ammo, its a lot easier to have a lot of it on hand.

Sharing mags. Awesome if every mag you're carrying can be used in either your long or your sidearm if something happens to one or the other.

. . . as others have said though. . . the biggest things to prep for are the most common things that won't involve guns at all.
 
#109 ·
...Your PCC will put a lot more heat on a 9mm round. You'll be getting almost 500 ft/lbs based on testing done by one of our Glock-talkers...
I mentioned early on, but that's worth repeating. With a lot of loads you get a major boost in power compared to the same load from a handgun.

Not only 'almost 500 ft/lbs'; but well over that, with a LOT of loads. Two of the four corbon loads I've measured thru a carbine run more than 650 ft/lbs, and one of them runs 740 ft/lbs. The old Federal 9BPLE runs 666 ft/lbs. Even non-plus-p, non-premium loads will surprise - even generic WW-USA white box stuff runs over 1,500 fps for 578 ft/lbs from a carbine.

The corbon and federal 115-grain loads run more than 1,600 fps, and the pow'rball runs more than 1800 fps. (I've clocked it several times as I didn't believe it myself at first.) Any >1,600 fps round that's not made out of styrofoam will penetrate any soft armor out there, including IIIA; so the only armor that will stop those rounds will also stop bullets from a 223 rifle.

While it'll never be a 'real' rifle round, it would probably kill me just as dead as one.
 
#110 ·
I would be doubtful of 9mm defeating level IIIA armor that is not expired and in good condition.

Even with the hot german 9mm ammo in MP-5's not to mention the 40 and 10mm versions there is a reason they developed true AP ammo for SMG's. It certainly isn't because hot 9mm performed well against IIIA.

SS197 out of a 5.7 is much better equipped to penetrate a vest than 9mm ball, and even then, it will only do so out of rifle. Even out of a rifle though, even the hot "boutique" loads will not penetrate IIIA hard armor plates.


Don't get me wrong, I still wouldn't want to get tagged with either, but IIIA armor will likely protect you from a penetration.
 
#111 · (Edited)
Well if max. noise reduction is your goal, sure. You can also achieve that with subsonic 300 BLK.

When 300BO becomes a standard issue with ready availability I'll consider it. Today's trip to the gun shop and Academy resulted in 0 boxes of 300BO subsonic and a total of 5 boxes of any weight. 147 grain 9mm was all over the place, including my ammo bunker.

Just to be clear the 9mm is not my only AR. And an AR is not my only 5.56.
 
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