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"You will be sued"

Discussion in 'Carry Issues' started by Master_Blaster1911, Nov 3, 2011.

  1. Master_Blaster1911

    Master_Blaster1911 Predatory

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    Jul 27, 2011
    Bexar County, TX
    Well, apparently not.

    In this issue of Rangemaster,

    http://www.rangemaster.com/newsletter/2011-11_RM-Newsletter.pdf

    Tom Givens recounts that there have been 8 justified shootings in his state (TN) in the last 3 years with no civil suits.

    This same is true over the last ten years in Texas; a number of shootings deemed justified by the State and no civil suits. (ETA: That I am aware of- should go without saying but, it's internet; ya can't trust common sense will be present)

    Am I saying you can't, nope.

    Just observing the fear may well be exaggerated.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2011
  2. I agree for states like Texas and Tennessee.

    But New York?
    Massachusetts?
    California?

    I dunno about that.

    Deaf
     


  3. Glockdude1

    Glockdude1 Federal Member CLM

    24,212
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    May 24, 2000
    Beaumont,Texas
    :agree:

    Another deeply exaggerated fear in the gun world, is the weapon/ammo/magazine used in a self defense shooting, will be used against you.

    I have been looking for a case where a good shooting has turned bad, only because of the weapon/ammo/magazine used some how changed something.

    So far I have not found any such case.

    :cool:
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2011
  4. Mas Ayoob

    Mas Ayoob KoolAidAntidote Moderator

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    Nov 6, 2005
    May not have been looking in the right places. Do a search for Attorney Lisa Steele's excellent article for the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers.
     
  5. Ah, Tennessee got Castle Doctrine back in 2007. You can't sue in civil court if it's justifiable homicide.

    Texas has also enjoyed the protection since 2007.

    Here's the code...

     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2011
  6. Lampshade

    Lampshade

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    May 11, 2010
    How about cases where weapon/ammo selection was a factor, not just the only factor.

    Seems like that would be a more pragmatic approach.
     
  7. Glockdude1

    Glockdude1 Federal Member CLM

    24,212
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    May 24, 2000
    Beaumont,Texas
    Please direct me to such a case. I look forward to reading it.

    :cool:
     
  8. Lampshade

    Lampshade

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    May 11, 2010
    Although you're the one who is supposedly interested in doing research, and I am merely suggesting a more practical avenue of approach, I'll indulge you and refer you to the case of Harold Fish.

    Prosecution made it a point that the use of 10mm HPs was overkill for the purpose of self defense and his ammo selection was used to bias the jury against him.
     
  9. Lampshade

    Lampshade

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    May 11, 2010
    A further example would be the transition of many police departments from single action capable revolvers to double action only models.

    Prosecutors were arguing that certain intentional shootings were in fact accidental, and claiming that officers had unintentionally discharged their revolvers while the hammer had been manually cocked.

    This is the same reason why trigger weight can be an issue, because a light trigger makes it possible for prosecution to claim that a shooting was actually accidental.

    In fact, there was an article posted very recently in the Lounge, detailing a trial in which the firearm used in the shooting was passed among the jury members and they each felt the trigger pull for themselves. Their determination? The shooting was intentional as the weight of the trigger was such that they did not believe it could be easily, inadvertently pulled as prosecution was claiming.

    I believe Massad Ayoob has also written of a client on whose behalf he testified when prosecution made an issue of the fact that the defendant was carrying a spare magazine or two.
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2011
  10. rjflyn

    rjflyn

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    May 29, 2007
    Michigan
    The thing is even with protections given by certain states you can still get sued. You may still have to hire an attorney, to file the appropriate paperwork to have the case tossed on the appropriate grounds. And this all costs money, though much cheaper than a judgement would be.
     
  11. Brucev

    Brucev

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    Jul 19, 2009
    Ah... right! The county/st./fed. prosecutor and his office have available the full resources of their office. The individual has only what he can bring to the table... paid for by whatever money is available or can be raised for him. Even if he wins, he can very easily be left financially wreaked. In addition one can only imagine the career and professional consequences that are inevitable.
     
  12. Donn57

    Donn57 Just me

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    Aug 11, 2006
    Sunny Florida
    Except that civil suits are not done by government prosecutors.
     
  13. Master_Blaster1911

    Master_Blaster1911 Predatory

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    Jul 27, 2011
    Bexar County, TX
    The point.

    Now how often is far more important. Many things can and may happen which we never take procautions against. Why not? Cost benefit analysis?
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2011
  14. Master_Blaster1911

    Master_Blaster1911 Predatory

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    Jul 27, 2011
    Bexar County, TX
    Not really, since DAs have a reputation of throwing anything and everything at the defendent that ammunition was made a factor renders it largely irrelevent.

    Rumor says DAs still use the "he was loaded with hollow points" attack event though it is easily defeated by asking every cop who takes the stand what bullets their guns are loaded with.

    I'd like to see this article by Steele, Mas referenced, but I can't ferret it out.

    Regardless of the article, I've yet to find an case where an obviously justified shooting lead to prosecution simply because X caliber or Y brand was used. Instead you find higly questionable shooting were I would consider it prudent to put the matter before a jury where ammo was one of the many arrows fired at the defendent.
     
  15. Lampshade

    Lampshade

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    May 11, 2010
    After the Howard Fish trial at least one juror specifically mentioned the ammo used as a vital issue in his decision to return a guilty verdict.

    And now we've come full circle.
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2011
  16. Brucev

    Brucev

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    My comment was directed toward the issue of prosecution after a shooting wherein irrational unreasonable attention by the prosecutor was paid to extraneous issues such as the appearance, caliber, name of any weapon used, etc. The point is that even where not warranted by evidence, a country, st. or fed. prosecutor can use the legal process as a weapon to use against a otherwise innocent not-at-fault citizen.
     
  17. Just this past spring, I took another class in carry laws and the use of deadly force in my state (Virginia). Present towards the end of the class was the commonwealth's attorney for that county and a man who was running for sheriff of the same county. In speaking with these two gentlemen, I asked them this very thing; were civil suits common after being found that one's use of deadly force was ruled excusable? They both responded that in Virginia, it was extremely rare and neither one of them could relate a case to me.

    Of course, you can be sued for most anything, but then doing so against someone who's actions have been deemed proper and correct is really going to be an uphill battle. Best thing is if at all possible, avoid situations where you might be placed in a position to use your firearm.
     
  18. Spiffums

    Spiffums I.C.P.

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    Sep 30, 2006
    If a DA wants to get you, your pretty much got. It takes a ton of money to fight the state. The question is Civil basically and this is where you need to make sure your lawmakers know they need to add civil protection into their laws.
     
  19. Cavalry Doc

    Cavalry Doc MAJ (USA Ret.)

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    Feb 22, 2005
    Republic of Texas
    If you kill someone in Texas, you will go to a grand jury. Texas has "use of deadly force" laws that allow that under conditions that I would pass on, which is the way I like it.

    If someone were to break into my truck and try to steal it tonight, I'd realize that the deductible on my insurance is less than the defense would cost for a grand jury.


    Only shoot people that you really NEED to shoot.