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WWB 147gr JHP??

Discussion in 'Caliber Corner' started by .45Super-Man, Jan 21, 2010.


  1. .45Super-Man

    .45Super-Man
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    Does anyone know which JHP bullet Winchester uses for their 147gr white box load? Anyone know the velocity and performance of this loading?? Picked up a 50 rnd box today at Wally world.
     

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  2. 481

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    It is rumored to be the same bullet that Winchester uses in the 147 gr. Silvertip JHP sans the silver plating on the exterior. I've examined quite a few of both pulled from cartridges and the dimensions are exactly the same.

    Here's an article that illustrates the performance of this load in actual living human tissue obtained at autopsy:

    http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Fackler_Articles/winchester_9mm.pdf

    The load offers expansion to 1.5x caliber (0.541") and a little more than 13 inches of average penetration while retaining about 95% of its weight. Its pretty good performance for an "old" design.
     

    #2 481, Jan 21, 2010
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2010
  3. CanyonMan

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    I am curious to know if WW has changed anything in the bullet/powder since this report. If not mistaken I think the report was 1991 (?).

    I kinda like that bullet and always have. I like the 147gr in 9mm. In some very unscientific test I've seen (and do not really agree with btw), this bullet in recent years was getting more than 20" penetration, but again, that was in wet pack meadia, which I am not real thrilled about. It was interesting to see the difference in expansion on this link from the hog belly, to the hog muscle. Something I have seen before (not with this bullet), but others....


    I'll try and find out if there have been any changes to this round. You have me curious now.


    Thanks for posting the link. Good reading.


    Stay safe


    CanyonMan
     
  4. 481

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    CM-

    You are welcome; glad you enjoyed it. :)

    You are correct. Wolberg's article appeared in the Winter/1991 IWBA journal.

    The examples (several of each) of the Winchester USA 147 gr. JHP that I've pulled, cut up and measured were of fairly recent manufacture (last 5-7 years) and matched dimensionally the 147 gr. Silvertip JHPs that I pulled, cut up and measured from a lot made in mid- to late-2007.

    All dimensions, (OAL, shank diameter, hollow point opening diameter and depth, length of ogival nose surface, external jacket skive length and spacing, bullet jacket thickness) matched to a one and my "guess" is that they are, other than the obvious difference in plating, one and the same. Short of a differently formulated lead alloy within the bullet, I cannot find anything to suggest that any change has occurred.

    Statisical variances between the two designs respective dimensions were nominal.

    While I couldn't truthfully swear to the two designs being duplicates of one another, I'd bet "long green" that they are, with high confidence that I'd collect on that bet.

    I, too, like the round and all of the 9mm 147 gr. ("heavy for caliber") JHPs and the Win USA 147 JHP is no exception. I've set aside about 4K as a "back up" load to my preferred carry load, the Hornady 9mm 147 gr. XTP JHP.

    I've also seen some of the "wetpack" tests. Interesting sure, but not exactly a scientifically repeatable medium.

    I'd sure appreciate seeing what you find in the way of actual changes through the course of your research on the Win USA round.



    :)
     
  5. CanyonMan

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    Very interesting reply.... I have a few of the "latest ones" from wally world. I will also pull a couple of them and do some checking and cross referencing etc, with my very limted knowledge....

    I have a friend at WW and will place a call to him tomorrow, and see what he has to say as well. I got a feeling your spot on about all this, but am interested to see what my friend says at WW. I will let ya know as I can get a hold of him..

    Man I wish I had that many of these set aside as you do, you dog you. ha. ha.


    I am "heavy for caliber" in everything a shoot/load for in hand guns as well. I really like 147gr for 9mm. Although I am known on GT for my stand with the 45acp, i did buy my wife a G19 9mil last weekend at the Dallas gun show we drove in to check out. I do love my big bores. But, Have had to use the 9mil in situations in the past, that have served me very well. (secret is out now) ha.

    I will keep you in the loop as I find out from my bud at WW what is what with this round.

    Thanks again for your info, and I really enjoy your post. I say in jest, some are waaaay over my mathmatical head, as a ranch hand country boy, haha but I say that in jest. I have a hard enough time figuring out how many cattle and horses we need to run on a given place at times and have to turn to the calculator for needed help..... ha.


    Seriously. Thanks for the info, and the post. I will let ya know what i find out..


    Stay safe Amigo..


    CanyonMan
     
  6. 481

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    CM,

    Sounds like we share common ground in our "heavy for caliber" preferences.

    When it comes to the .45, I prefer the Hornady 230 gr. XTP JHP +P pushing its 230 gr. JHP at an honest 950 fps from my HK USP45.

    Lookin' forward to hearin' what you find out from your friend inside WW, CM, and thanks for keeping me in the loop. I do appreciate it. :)
     
  7. Merkavaboy

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    The Win USA 147JHP uses the same bullet as it was loaded back in the late 80's and adopted by the FBI. Winchester's website shows this load has a MV of 990fps out of a vented test barrel. Actual velocity, depending on barrel length, is going to be less.

    This 147JHP (designated the Olin Super Match Type-L) was initially developed for the SEALs to be used out of the suppressed MP-5SD sub-guns for long distance accuracy and was never designed to be a self-defense round to be fired out of pistols.

    The article written by Eugene Wolberg (link provided previously) is flawed and cannot be taken at face value as he cherry-picked the bullets used in his study to match his hypothesis.
     
  8. CanyonMan

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    Yep. I as well like the 230gr XTP in my 45's, and although I am a dying breed on GT I do like my 230 ball rounds best. I just don't learn new tricks well. ;)


    Gotta right quick. I'll let ya know what i find out.


    CanyonMan
     
  9. 481

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    Simply your opinion.

    Can you provide an actual source citation (another article, published academic paper, or professional journal) that supports your assertion as quoted above? I would really like to see an example of factual refutation of Wolberg's work since I see this claim made all the time and have yet to see any supporting documentary evidence.

    Otherwise, no one can take this as anything other than your factually unsupported and uninformed opinion.

    Please understand that I am not attempting disrespect towards you here. I am simply seeking an actual source citation for the claim you've made above.

    :)
     
  10. CanyonMan

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    Well, I got my hands plumb full here and irons in the fire every where, so here is the short version of what I got on the phone from my friend that works at the ammo dept. at WW

    He said, and you 481 are correct (in part. I'll get to that), that the 'present day' WWB 147gr JHP is indeed the ST, but without the silver coating.. "Except for one difference." The "Segmented Scribing," or cuts, lines, running down the bullet from the pedals are "shorter than the ST bullet."

    Therefore, as he said, 'and we already know'. That means more penetration that the ST in the same weight which is designed to open faster. This lines up real well with all those wet pack jug test and others as well, (that i am not fond of), but yet none the less, the WWB 147gr JHP in those test was passing through as many as 5 wet pack jugs, and kept on truckin. Same in other test I have seen. Penetration was almost like FMJ. Even though sub sonic as we all know, it still is a penetration dude. Hummmm (slow and heavy). Oh well, moving right along. My friend said he would 'not even' hesitate to carry that round, BUT, there is more...


    I know that "Merkavaboy" said it was not originally desiged for a pistol, but that is incorret in part. My friend new abosolutely nothing about the Seals and the sub guns, (does not mean that's not correct, no one is saying that), just saying it was news to him. But, it was/is very much designed for a 9mil hand gun, I mean come on, it is a 9mil bullet ;) Thanks Merkavaboy for the info. Personally I like the sound of a bullet Seals used for long range sniper work being in my pistol mag. In fact, the ones I have fired (WWB 147gr), have been spot on POA/POI.
    Out of the glocks. They shot great.

    Next. This was interesting, 'to me at least.' He said "If you want a bullet that is a real penetrator, and bonded on top of that, go to the 147gr Bobnded PDX1." He said they are back logged on that round to the max for one reason it IS the chosen round in 9mil 147gr and 40s&w 180gr for the FBI boys and "heavy for caliber they went as well in both those calibers. "

    I mentioned the Ranger NON BONDED 127gr +P+ T series. He siad " Hey, the Bonded PDX1 in the 147gr will get better penetrtion than the +P+ in 127gr. because the PDX round is bonded (and heavier), with controlled expansion, and will go deeper, although with just a tad less wound channel than the 127 Ranger +P+ T series which is designed to open faster with less penetraion.

    He said.. Th ST in the 147gr is about 1010fps, and the WWB in the 147gr is 990fps. I for one am not worried about 20fps at a few feet away from the BG... Plus I do not care for a rapid expanding bullet. I want the penetration from a heavier weight. That's me..

    Oh yeah, he also said of the WWB 147gr, that the changes, (I've mentioned one), I'll say it again, is the Segmented Scribes not as pronouned, thus better Penetration, the obvious missing silver coating, and just a tad change to the powder from the older rounds years ago, in that the powder is a bit more flash suppressant.


    Well, there ya go boys and girls. We talked about all kinds of stuff, but i did manage to jot all that down for those who are interested.

    Me, Mr. bigbore ha. But in the 9mil when thrown in the truck at times, I will continue to carry the WWB 147gr JHP's, and or the 147gr. bonded PDX1 sounds even better, and according to my bud, is a great penetrator, and bonded, and still does what it needs to do... bla bla. (let the reader understand) Then I won't have to give out details between me and him. ;)


    That's it. Interesting morning.


    Good shooting all




    CanyonMan
     
  11. 481

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    Thanks for all the research, CM. Nice job and a very informative post.

    Now for the question I hope was asked and answered: Does the current production WWB 147 gr. JHP ammunition use the same bullet that was used in the earlier production WWB 147 gr. JHP ammunition?

    I also wonder, and perhaps Merkavaboy can "chime in" (if he ain't annoyed with me), with what he knows about the old WW LE "Restricted" Controlled Expansion 147 gr. JHP (catalog number Q4217) being the same (or another bullet entirely) as opposed to the OSM bullet used in current production Winchester USA 147 gr. JHPs.

    I have a few hundred (~400) rounds of the 9mm 147 gr. PDX and like the bonded aspect that Winchester has incorporated into it.

    Ran some of the 9mm 147 gr. PDX through the chrony last autumn and it performed well matching the factory advertised velocity out of my Glock 17:

    Winchester PDX1 9mm 147 gr. JHP (S9MMPDB1)
    Hi: 1013<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:eek:ffice:eek:ffice" /><o:p></o:p>

    Lo: 970
    Av: 990

    Md: 991.50
    ES: 43
    SD: 9.364

    n: 20<o:p></o:p>


    This is very interesting to say the least.

    Looks like I will be sticking with the 147 gr. PDX for a very long time. Nice to have options. :)


    Thanks again for the outstanding info, CM.
     
  12. CanyonMan

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    Well, as you ask in your post above.."Now for the question I hope was asked and answered: Does the current production WWB 147 gr. JHP ammunition use the same bullet that was used in the earlier production WWB 147 gr. JHP ammunition?

    If I am answering you and reading you right.. Like I said in my post. My bud said the WWB 147gr current production is the same as the ST without the silver and has not got the "Segmented Scribing," or cuts, lines, running down the bullet from the pedals, they (serrations) are "shorter than the ST bullet." Giving it deeper penetration..

    I think I just got the revealation of what your asking here... Sorry My brain is on half a tank tonight. The 'current' 147gr WWB, is different in all the ways I previously discribed, BUT, I do not know if it "stayed the same as it was back when," or if their were any mods to it... This is what I believe you are asking.

    I mostly had that one question on my mind when I called him, and then we got off on a gab fest, so I never thought to ask that one amigo. Good question. I sure can find out though and let ya know in a day or two...


    I tell ya I like that bullet, i really do. If I can find a case or three I'm buying in on it after what I have seen, and how well it responded to my own shooting out of a 17 and a 19. Also, yes, the PDX1 in 147gr for the 9mil according to my bud is really great in every way (not claiming 'magic bullet' here, no no), just that he could not say enough good about it. I will get some and give it a test run into some stuff when i can (this time with pics). Maybe I can get him to slip me a couple boxes. ;)


    HTH's some.
    I'll get back with ya...



    CanyonMan
     
  13. 481

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    CM,

    You are correct. This is indeed, the question that I was asking. As for being at "half tank", I feel you on that. Depending upon my schedule I am no stranger to that condition.

    I appreciate you doing what you've been doing and providing the info. Thanks, man. :)

    Hope you get a chance to tip a brew (or three :supergrin:) and relax. Life's too short to be burning it at both ends all of the time.
     
  14. CanyonMan

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    I hear ya. It is 11:17 pm and I am just now done with dealing with some livestock for the night. A few hours sleep, and do it again. I must admit, no complaints cause i been doing this since I was a kid. But now at 58, I am trying to be more boss, and less hired hand. haha.


    I will call my friend at WW monday, and see what I can find out. I am curious myself..

    I think we are going to try some testing this summer in the beef hind quarters covered in intestines, hollow and solid organs, and topped off with a shirt and heavy jacket, with a number of factor fodder, and try to film it this time, along with pics. Now all this has neen done before and we never thought about the pics. Just the way it is here, but if we get the time will will try.

    Anyway... good night amigo/s.
    I will let you know what i find out monday or tuesday.....


    God bless
    stay safe



    Canyonman
     
    #14 CanyonMan, Jan 23, 2010
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2010
  15. Merkavaboy

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    Sorry for not getting back to this thread earlier. And no, I'm not annoyed with you :) . Anyway, I'll try and explain why I tend to frown upon Wolberg's article that pops up every now and then. It may be a little long so bear with me.

    I'm not sure exactly when the Win 147JHP was officially adopted by the FBI, but my earliest sample round is dated '87. Also in my collection is one dated '88, one from an earily Win Super-X "Deep Penetration Subsonic" box and a fairly current ('08) USA brand load. All measurements are the same for all 4 loads; cavity depth, cavity diameter at the meplat and length of jacket cuts at the bullet tip. Esentially, they are all the same bullet. I even confirmed this with a friend who's a Winchester Rep in So.Cal. and he contacted his contact at Winchester who confirmed that the bullet used for their USA brand 147JHP load is the same bullet as the original OSM load.

    Now, over the years, those in the shooting/training industry who have had access to shooting data involving the OSM bullet have reported this load as being an erratic performer in actual shootings, including underexpansion and overpenetration. In previous threads about this particular load, several GT members have noted, from actual experiences in investigating shootings, that the OSM is an erratic performer.

    Now, having said that, I became aware of Wolberg's article about 5 years ago. After reading and re-reading it again and again, some questions came to mind that just doesn't jive with his findings, including:

    If SDPD had been using the OSM load for roughly 4 years, why was only 28 bullets examined? I'm sure they had more shootings than that. It's very unlikely that they had only 28 shootings that ALL expanded as reported by Wolberg. No, I'm pretty sure that they had more shootings than 28 (though I have no personal proof of that), so what about any other shootings in which the bullets didn't expand or possibly even overpenetrated on torso shots? Where are they at? If you're going to evaluate a load, all shootings to the torso must be included; the good, the bad and the ugly. Not just the picture perfect rounds that meet your given criteria. With as many people who have seen or had actual hands on experience investigating shootings that have reported erratic performance from this round, it's highly improbable that SDPD never had such expansion/excessive penetration problems. But without access to all SDPD shootings, we will never really know just how effective or ineffective the load was for SDPD.

    And the use of ballistic gel. There's no way that gel can recreate human tissue. The shooting of gel in a labratory at a given temperature at a given distance cannot recreate the distances and angles of actual shootings. Not realistic at all.

    But what really caught my attention was the fact is that Wolberg's article didn't touch upon how really effective this load is/was. When the BGs were shot were they immediately incapacitated or did it take multiple shots to bring them down? It really doesn't mean much looking at expanded bullets dug out of corpses if it took multiple bullets to immediately stop someone. All Wolberg's report states is that the OSM bullet when shot into calibrated 10% ballistic gel mimics bullets removed from corpses.

    But those are just my observations and musings regarding this load, Wolberg's article, and from the reported experiences of others who have first hand knowledge about this load and it's use.

    But the thing that confirmed my suspicions I had years ago about Wolberg's article regarding cherry-picked bullets was when two people, who are both GT members, on another gun forum while in a heated discussion, one of them who knew Wolberg confirmed that the Coroner did in fact cherry-pick the bullets used in Wolberg's article.

    I'd rather not toss that GT member under the bus for confirming my suspicion. So you can either take my word for it or you can dismiss it as bolony. But I think that those of you who have read my comments over the years should realize that I'm very straight-forward in my comments and I'm not out to pull the proverbial wool over peoples' eyes.
     
  16. Merkavaboy

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    It's not unusual for many people to not know the origin, design or purpose of specific rounds unless they do a lot of research or know someone who has the answers to said question. There are many extremely knowledgeable cartridge collectors that are very serious about their research and the accuracy of the info they obtain when documenting their specimens.

    As an example, how many people realize that as late as 1969 Industrie Valcartier Inc. of Quebec, Canada, (IVI) was making 9mm 158FMJ loads (identified by a green tip) for the U.S.N.'s "Hush Puppy" suppressed pistol system?

    Or the fact that before the Navy settled on the 147 OSM load Winchester designed a 140JHP load designated the Type-B (my exemplar is dated 85). This load was delivered to the Crane Naval Weapons Station in Indiana for testing. That weight didn't quite work out, so they upped the weight to 145 grains. This loading didn't expand so Winchester went up two more grains and redesigned the HP in order to obtain some amount of expansion and still have the cycling reliability, accuracy and sound suppression that was desired. This final load was of course designated the Olin Super Match Type-L (L=subsonic).

    So esentially, yes, the OSM load was initially designed for the HK MP5 suppressed subguns that was adopted by the SEALs, and not for using out of pistols.
     
  17. beforeobamabans

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    VERY interesting discussion gentlemen. The background provided by all three of you tends to reinforce the rep of this round as "penetration first, expansion second". It brings to mind Gold Dot 147s.
     
  18. 481

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    Good info. Glad you are not annoyed with me. :)

    Some have taken incorrectly my directness as insult, hubris or personal attack. I s'pose that a "let's just cut to the chase" attitude can be interpreted like that, but my primary motivation is to get the factual matter out there and be done with it. Guess 20+ years as a sworn LEO has made "Just the facts ma'am..." part of my argumentative repertoire. Thanks for the insightful perspective. It matches very closely much of what I've heard about the OSM round over the years.

    I understand your stance on the article and agree in large part with what you've said. Like you, I have never seen, and therefore have no documentation, that would serve to refute Wolberg's article above.

    Doubtless there were many more than 28 shootings that occurred during the period from which Wolberg's sample population (n) was obtained, but practicality becomes an issue in real world data collection. The likely possibility that Wolberg was unable collect each and every data point generated for numerous reasons (unrecovered bullets, incomplete documentation, criteria/parametric issues, etc.) is a confounding factor that makes any study less than perfect before it ever begins and Wolberg was not immune to this reality.

    Nonetheless, the article does illustrate a very strong correlation between terminal ballistic performance in living human tissue and calibrated 10 %ordnance gelatin, which was the point of Wolberg's article in the first place and I see that you "get that", too. (highlighted above in red) :)

    So, if I am to understand correctly what you have stated above, it is your understanding that the OSM (type-L) projectile is used in all of the following Winchester 9mm 147 gr. JHP ammunition:

    1. Winchester "Super-X" Deep Penetration Subsonic 9mm Luger 147 gr. JHP

    2. Winchester 9mm Luger Subsonic 147 gr. Jacketed "Controlled Expansion" (LE restricted ammo) (Q4217)

    3. Early and current production Winchester USA 147 gr. JHP ammunition (PP) (USA9JHP2)

    4. Early and current production Winchester "Super X" Silvertip 147 gr. JHP ammunition (X9MMST147) (the silver jacket plating process being an exception, of course)

    Do I have a correct understanding of what you are communicating? :dunno:



    As for the confusion demonstrated by many regarding the use of calibrated 10% ordnance gelatin as a test medium, I offer this brief perspective from another post that I wrote in another thread (I know, I know...now I'm arrogant for quoting myself. :supergrin:) here in "CC":



    :)
     
    #18 481, Jan 23, 2010
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2010
  19. CanyonMan

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    Very true....

    I was not saying in your first post, that you were just flat wrong, as I believe I made that really clear. Man got NO issue with ya, not at all. Just reapeating what my WW bud told me, and again, that does not mean he knows everything. I agree. He did however give some very good wisdom and advice so I appreciate that, as I appreciate some of the info you have brought to the table as well,

    Seem I got a cajillion post to respond to al of sudden so I am going to make thm all short. ;)

    Thanks again for your input. I do think that 147gr. WWB is to my liking anyway. It is a good accuracte round through my 9's and gives extrememly good penetration which for me is key...

    Well, Adios, and thanks again...



    Canyonman
     
  20. 481

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    CM,

    Don't think that I've forgotten what you've been pursuing either.

    I look forward to hearing what your friend at WW has to offer (re: "Does the current production WWB 147 gr. JHP ammunition use the same bullet that was used in the earlier production WWB 147 gr. JHP ammunition?") since it serves as confirmatory "icing on the cake" regarding this issue.

    This has been an interesting thread to be sure and I've enjoyed learning what Merkavaboy has had to offer as well. Good stuff.
     
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