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wings or no wings

Discussion in 'Tactical Shotguns' started by fkizdi, Aug 24, 2010.

  1. fkizdi

    fkizdi

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    Ghost ring sights....

    Wings on the front or rear or not?
    What are some of your opinions?
    Pros and Cons

    Go....
     
  2. aippi

    aippi

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    Not a GR fan, but anything on top of the receiver is a hinderance to your ability to rapidly aquire a target. This is why the Wilson Track II and the Trijicons do not have that feature. They get in the way. They may provide protection for the rear apperature for a heavy duty use weapon that is expected to get banged around a lot but that is just not the case for most of the weapons out there.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2010

  3. MD357

    MD357

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  4. aippi

    aippi

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    Mad Dog - Not going to start a GR -v- anything else here. He asked about the protective wings and and that is what I am talking about, they can be a distraction and that is why they are not on the Wilson Track II's which also come on the 870P models or the Trijicon GR sights. This leads me to believe that Wilson Combat, Scattergun Tech, Remington and the fine folks at Trijicon also agree they are a hinderence. My answer addressed his question.

    Your video has nothing to do with what the OP asked. Do you have anything to add to his post?
     
  5. MrMurphy

    MrMurphy ********* Moderator Moderator Millennium Member Lifetime Member

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    Front? Yes. Rear? No.

    They can frame the target and protect the front sight blade just like on a rifle. The rear protective wings just seem to get in the way, and the barrel tends to take more dings than the receiver in use.
     
  6. MD357

    MD357

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    I'm not starting a "what's better war either." You incorrectly stated that ANYTHING on top of the reciever was a hinderance. Now if you mispoke then that's fine, if not I disagree and showed why, or rather showed someone that has shown me different. That someone can train to work fast, with things on top of the reciever.

    Going to second the front is fine opinion.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2010
  7. aippi

    aippi

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    Did not misspeak, just gave my knowledgeable opinion which is shared by guys like Clint Smith and others. I am thinking that Wilson, Remington, Trijicon might know something about GR sights that we don't and that is why they design them like that or use that rear sight design without wings. But like Murphy said the front may not be a big an issue as the the Remington barrel with Front GR sight has protective wings but the Wilson Track II rear sight Remington uses does not.

    I have no use for GR. I try to talk clients out of them but if not I take their $140 to sell and install them on their custom build. Good money as I get dealer cost on them and I can install them in less then 30 minutes. So anyone wanting them on their AI&P Tactical can get them. But I use Wilson and Trijicon which are the same sight.

    And yes proficient shooters who get mega trigger time can become proficient with most any sighting system. These Tactical Instructors who do this for a living are on the range most every day and some of them push this sight. But the average guy buying an HD is not and should stick with a more basic sight. So, I do not recommend these for HD or even duty. I get calls on a regular basis from a guy stating he is new to shotguns and then starts wanting GR's, Rails, VFG and all kind of mess. I refer him to the statement on my web site to keep it "Basic". If an advanced shooter or 3 gun shooter calls and understand the weapon he needs then heck yes, GR's it is.

    What some people miss on these type web sites is this. They have advanced knowledge and skills. Yet, a guy posting a very basic question most often does not and you can tell that by the question he posted. Yet, guys start giving him advice and do not take in account his skill level or knowledge he has of these weapons. I am a professional in this business and build these weapons for clients based on need and I try to answer the questions based on this.

    I give basic advise to a guy asking a basic question. Others start giving them advanced information that most likely is of no benifit to the person. It tooK you years to get to the skill level you are at and obtain the knowledge about this subject you have and to think a new guy, asking the most basic of questions is going to benifit from some of the response he gets is unrealilistic.

    Even if GR's are the greatest sighting system in the world a beginer should start learning a shotgun with a bead sight. Me, I say stay with it. However as that person advances and decides he or she can become proficient with a GR in a gun fight then they can make the change.
     
  8. David Armstrong

    David Armstrong

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    Just think how much faster he might be without the junk on top of the receiver!:supergrin:
    FWIW, if the evidence to support a position is "look at how someone with more training and experience than 99% of the rest us can do it" is generally not real persuasive, IMO.
     
  9. MD357

    MD357

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    Sure ya did. You said ANYTHING on top of the reciever, not just GR sights. I'm not arguing the rest.

    That's great but that has nothing to do with what I posted.

    And there we have it. Although, I can't speak for YOU, I'll say that I've taken shotgun courses where it didn't take "mega" trigger time to become proficient enough to defend yourself, using various sight platforms. Some work better for other and YMMV, just like with handguns, AR etc. However, one thing I just proved is that you can be fast and you don't have to be superman. :cool: :supergrin:

    Nothing I said was advanced by any means. I showed potential but it's not like someone would be shooting for the stars. Anyone that is considering a shotgun for HD/SD etc should actually go out and shoot/practice with whatever setup they choose.

    There are some dated views out there that prohibit progressive thinking IMO, just like with any shooting platform. Funny how shooting has evolved over the years for promote more training. Either way, Someone that is considerably less fast than the individual in the video would probably be proficient enough for HD/competition etc. The point was to show that it's far from impossible.
     
  10. David Armstrong

    David Armstrong

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    But nobody said anything about it being impossible, so I'm not sure why you would even mention that point. The point was if it is a hindrance.

    True. I happen to think one of the worst still hanging around is "it will work if you only train more."
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2010
  11. fkizdi

    fkizdi

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    everyone needs to calm down.
    regardless of your opinion of GR sights i am putting them on my shotgun and i wanted to know opinions of wings.

    I didnt ask whether people though GRs were the way to go or not.


    Aippi, your argument about experts like Wilson and Clint Smith staying away from wings isn't very good. I think anyone can find examples of experts and the contrary. Like Ashley Emerson (XS Sights) offer wings as an option on their GRs. Nighthawk custom offers their shotguns with both rear and front wings(PSI/LPA ghost rings). As does the Mossberg 590a1. Benelli M4 that the navy contacted.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Quvm3F9XIxI&feature=related
    video of gunsite trainer with wings.

    I was more asking about your personal experiences with or without wings.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2010
  12. aippi

    aippi

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    Good points Mad Dog. I agree with a lot of it. I just don't want a new guy to think he can buy a certain sighting system and shoot like that guy in the video. You did not post anything horribly incorrect and I only attempted to get back to the point of the OP's questions and the answer is "NO WINGS". The reason that is the answer is based mostly on my perception of fighting shotguns, sighting systems and trying to find a sight in the S**T. Having a peep sight mounted on top of a shotgun receiver is hard enough for a new guy, add two slabs of steel on each side of that peep sight and he is asking for some issues, untill of course like you said, he trains and gets good with them which means a lot of trigger time and lot of ammo. I should also mention the wings could interfer with your peripheral vision which is why the Wilson Track Locks don't come with them. Peripheral vision is very important in a fight and the wings may not affect everyone but for some it causes tunel vision and a shut down of peripheral vision, again not everyone and it is based on your vision.
     
  13. fkizdi

    fkizdi

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    That is a good point Aippi. However if you think about it. Most carbines have wings around its ghost rings. And novice shooters don't have another option than to step up to the learning curve fast. And they seem to manage with defensive and offensive use.

    I guess i just really wanna know if the wings protective aspects outweigh their hindrances.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2010
  14. aippi

    aippi

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    Fkidz- No one needs to calm down, this is how it is done. I answered your question. NO to WINGS. You asked a pretty basic question and got an answer. I wrongly assumed you had very little knowledge of the subject as the question is very basic, but I now see from your last post that you are very well informed and know more about it then I do and know more about the verious GR models then I do. I do know why wings are not on some of the leading brands out there. As for some of the models that are out there with Wings on the rear. A lot of those companies are revenue driven and are going to put any thing out there that will sell. If it causes a shooter to have peripheral issues and tunnel vision that is the shooters problem. I happen to think Wilson/Scattergun builds the best GR set on the Market. Tacti-fool is the trend and it is driving the market and these web sites. Some people get it and some don't. I would listen to Mr. Smith before I listened to these other guys. That is based on years of using these weapons, training with them and training others. I have as much knowledge of these weapons and how they are used then any of the people you quoted. I don't share some views of their and they would say mine are soaked in Dinosauer doo doo. They will say I am old school and wrong. The key word is old and plan to get older. Having a fighting shotgun will no tact-fool mess on it might just help me carry out that plan one day. You can also see GR's on my Police Elite model so I am not totally anti GR for everyone. Just anti Wings as those are Wilson Track II's.
     
  15. MD357

    MD357

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    Eh, I prefer training more than trying to buy your way into proficiency with equipment like many do, then they just assume they're proficient enough to defend themselves. Using GR sights really doesn't take a "SEAL operator" to be quite honest. :cool:



    Oh and for the record.... I'm not upset..... and I don't think anyone else is? Doesn't seem like it anyways. I actually agree with keep it simple stupid most of the time, and even agree with aippi's posts on this forum.(concerning the differences or lack thereof in a 870P) I just wanted to relay some different views on target aquisition.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2010
  16. aippi

    aippi

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    MD - your post are very civil and point very well made. I think the OP just misread passion for temper. People need to be passionate about the things they believe in. A lot of what is wrong with us as a people is loss of passion. My Granpa was passionate about so many things and it rubbed off on me.

    Your comment about buying ones way to profeciency is 100% dead on. No where can that be seen more then in the game of golf. Guys spend thouands on clubs thinking it will improve their game when the reality is that you got to hit a million plus balls to get good at that. I may break 80 one day when life slows down enough for me to get back to the range and work on hitting those million.

    OP - you have your head on right and you understand the issue and what works best for you. Letting some old school fart like me tell you what to do is wrong head as only you know what is best for you. Unlike so many of my clients who are just getting into these weapons and are being pointed in the wrong direction by so called "Tactical Instructors" and post on web sites.
     
  17. David Armstrong

    David Armstrong

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    And that is what you are getting, opinions of wings. That you are getting more than that you may consider a freebie.

    I'm certainly not. When folks come to the internet with questions opposing views should be expected.
    No disagreement. My main objection to the training aspect is the many trainers who use that as their rationale, "it will work if you just train more" while failing to realize that many shooters simply do not have the resources to "just train more."
     
  18. aippi

    aippi

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    Dave - you nailed another one - Client called a few weeks back about the SpecOps failing on his weapon. He said he only had about two boxes of shells through the weapon. He bought it about two years ago. This is more typical then you would think. People get one, shoot it, put it in the closet and feel safe now that they have an HD shotgun. Even if they are out there shooting other weapons they still need to practice with their dedicated HD if they truely believe they will call upon it to defend themselves or their family. They either don't have the resourse, time or just don't get it. Oh well, getting off topic so will go out to the shop now and work.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2010
  19. fkizdi

    fkizdi

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    I'll let you guys know what i end up buying and installing. I'll post pictures when I can.

    I just wanted to get some opinions since sights are pretty expensive and wanted to get some ideas before i dropped the $ on a set.

    I have other shotguns with a bead and do quite well with them. However for the field of use this shotgun will be utilized in i am going with GRs. I appreciate everyone's comments. This is a great forum and u guys really know what your talking about.
     
  20. MD357

    MD357

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    I think "many" can, they just find excuses NOT to, and or can't take the ego hit that they might learn something/have something to learn.