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wing chun

Discussion in 'The Martial Arts Forum' started by Ian, Dec 5, 2006.

  1. Ian

    Ian Millennium Member

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    Dec 16, 1998
    USA
    I have a chance of taking up this style, with a guy called Tommy (very famous?)
    Could you tell me something about this style please?
     
  2. mouser

    mouser CLM

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    Dec 29, 2004
    Alexandria, VA
    I trained in this about 25 years ago!
    A very reasonable style, based on center-line power.. punches and kicks from the center of the body. You can generate an amazing amount of power with these techniques. Even as much as 12 years later, when some other karate students were breaking boards with their "bigger"(see disclaimer below) techniques, I was still able to match the breaks with a 1" punch.
    Supposedly this style is an older Shaolin style, which was honed in Hong Kong and Shanghai, on the rows and rows of boats tied together in the harbors... With this style, you can literally (ok, maybe not really) fight in a phone booth..

    Disclaimer - not a disparaging remark, it's just that their punches/kicks took up a lot more room - I like karate and kickboxing too, all have their uses and benefits.
     

  3. Dogbite

    Dogbite DNT TREAD ON ME

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    May 20, 2000
    Tennessee
    I agree with the above post, its a reasonable style. I say take it up, and see what you think. Most any training will do you some good. If I'm wrong, someone correct me, but don't the Guardian Angels of New York learn this style??
     
  4. Danny Reid

    Danny Reid

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    Sep 11, 2005
    Wing Chun would be a good system to take up. It is especially good for honing your close in fighting skills.

    It is of southern Chinese origin. I am not aware of any Shaolin connection, so I would be somewhat dubious of that claim.

    The story goes that is was actually formulated by a nun.

    But keep in mind, all martial art 'origin' stories are often as much legend as fact.

    Regardless, it is still an excellent system to study.
     
  5. MtnBiker

    MtnBiker NRA Member Millennium Member

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    Jun 19, 1999
    Georgia
    I'm not sure about the Guardian Angels, but isn't this the style usually learned by the chinese tongs? It's fairly quick to learn and effective without a lot of flash.
     
  6. mouser

    mouser CLM

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    Dec 29, 2004
    Alexandria, VA
    From the "lore" I remember, a Shaolin nun did came up with the basics of the style. Looking at the arm position (and shoulder/forearm flexibility) required to throw centerline punches, I think it's reasonable that a woman did come up with it, as most mens arms don't naturally have the elbow pointing down when their arms are extended, but many women do have this "feature".
    Those of you who have trained in Wing Chun, did any of you try the staff. It's much longer than the typical staff or bo - quite a bit harder, for me, at least.
     
  7. thetoastmaster

    thetoastmaster NOT a sheepdog!

    Wing Chun, like many martial arts, is very good when it's good, and when it's bad, it is really laughable. I was fortunate enough to study Wing Chun from a good instructor. The proof of an instructor's ability is in his students. Go check it out. If it's good, you'll know it immediately. If it's bad, I hope you'll know faster. The instructor should teach simple skillsets first, centerline low kicks and strong centerline chain punches. We used to spend quite a bit of time on wall bags and heavy bags working on the mechanics of the punch, so that the students could land hard punches in succession. Later, you can learn how to fight against specific opponants (boxers and grapplers, for example).

    That was a long-winded way to say "go check it out", I guess.
     
  8. gr81disp

    gr81disp Bushbot v1.0

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    Sep 19, 2004
    Marietta, GA
    I have never studied Wing Chun, so I do not know about it, but I do know that you cannot learn how to fight a grappler unless you learn how to grapple. Just as a grappler cannot how to fight a striker without learning how to block strikes. (I would say the same thing about blocking grapples, but there isn't really an equivalent way to do it without grappling yourself)
     
  9. OldRonin

    OldRonin

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    Jan 16, 2007
    Virginia
    I guess I have to politely disagree on the idea you have to learn grappling to stop a grappler. I wrestled when I was younger. I've trained for 30 years now standing up, and I've learned ways some fairly simple ways to keep a grappler from taking me down. Some of these are not sport techniques, though. UFC wouldn't allow parts of these methods. If any of you care for details, I'll share.

    John
     
  10. OldRonin

    OldRonin

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    Jan 16, 2007
    Virginia
    I've trained in Wing Chun along my 30 years of MA training.
    All in all, its more combat effective than most other styles.
    The training sure won't hurt you, you'll learn some great tools. I don't recommend single style learning, though I believe you should stick with training with a style until you really understand and can be proficient at its fundamentals.

    If you can find somebody teaching silat or kuntao, they sound wierd, but if you add on their stuff with wing chun, you can turn yourself into on helluva wildcat.

    Like the others said, try out this guy, see if you like training with him. If he's good, you'll learn a lot and be better off than if you spent the time in a karate class. I should know, I've got 5th dan in hard core karate, and I don't use much of any of the karate techniques for self-defense. They don't work, at least not the moves you learn in sparring, unless you are fighting another karate man.
    In the street, you'll get creamed, unless you take the other guy out with your first move.

    John
     
  11. joedoc

    joedoc

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    Oct 27, 2006
    cincinnati
    Ronin, I would like to hear the techniques you refer to for use versus a grappler. I am an (old) TKD guy, and would prefer to stay upright also.
     
  12. OldRonin

    OldRonin

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    Jan 16, 2007
    Virginia
    On not grappling a grappler.

    I've gotten a number of private requests to explain what I meant in my earlier post, so I decided to post it for everyone to see. This is the basic technique. It has no name. I don't know who might have used it before me. I spend a lot of time analyzing martial arts and combatives, always looking for what really works, and what doesn't. I was working on developing a counter against a guy charging at me low, and I came up with this move. I couldn't believe how easy it was to do.

    Stopping a grappler’s charge from taking you down.

    Quick explanation: At the moment he’s about to reach you, you suddenly start shuffling and backing up at the same speed he’s coming in at you. You reach out with both hands and slap your hands onto the top of his shoulders and press down, while you keep backing up, pressing his shoulders down as you go by gradually lowering your weight by bending you knees a little more with each shuffle, so that eventually he hits the ground with his face. It’s a simple move, once you’ve practiced it a few times.

    You can think of this of using the principles of aikido (redirecting incoming force into a way that puts him down and leaves you standing.) You can do it the “nice” way, where his chest hits the dirt, or if you are in serious danger, you can do variations or use some "add ons" to cause serious damage.

    Add-ons: a) Push down sharply on the back of his neck or head so his face hits the ground first. b) Reach around to his face and twist-gouge a finger(s) into an eye socket. C) slap him sharply over both ears as soon as it is safe to stop pushing down on his shoulders.
    d)do a "Mexican hat dance" on his hands as soon as he hits the ground. e) Stomp on his ankle so he can't get up and chase you.
    CAUTION: NEVER, EVER, KICK A MAN IN THE HEAD WHEN HE'S DOWN. You're likely to face a criminal charge.

    I urge everyone to use the appropriate level of counter-force.


    More details:

    Variation 1: if there is very little room to back up, you step deftly to the side and shuffle what few steps you can, and rotate your body a bit as you slap the top of his incoming shoulders and push down sharply as you twist and direct him into a face-landing just like before, except instead of going back in a straight line, you do it in a spiral.

    Anybody who comes at you with his head at your waist level, you should side-step slightly so you aren’t directly in the line of incoming force, put a good crab grip into the back of his neck and push down, using the “dropping-energy” of bending you knees and lowering your center of gravity. Keep your back straight!

    This is the basic method. Different kinds of grappler take-downs require variations of this move.

    Train. Stay safe. Train some more.


    John
     
  13. gr81disp

    gr81disp Bushbot v1.0

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    Sep 19, 2004
    Marietta, GA
    Sorry, but that has a very low probability of working. This description is how to defend against a "football tackle", NOT a grappler's takedown. 1) The takedown will most likely be too fast to move very far back 2) The grappler will probably be too close 3) The grappler does NOT charge with his head down, he lowers his level, keeping his head UP, moves forward VERY quickly, grabs the legs and, keeping his head up, pushes UP and forward. Pushing on his head will probably push his head to the side, but you still end up on your back. Anyone who attempts to beat grappling without learning how to grapple is going to lose. Period.
     
  14. gr81disp,

    I have been an active Wing Chun practioner since 1977. Merely a student with lots of repetition and experience in BJJ. I also am a NiDan in Judo. We crosstrain in Muay Thai to the point where I and others here have competed (and won) quite a few Muay Thai events.

    We have a few "grapplers" come to our place to learn effective striking and low kicks. A grappler can be easily defeated and a takedown is not so difficult to deflect or avoid.

    Wing Chun is known for linear movements and powerful punching. However, one of the most devastating parts of Wing Chuns arsenal of offense is the low kicks. Simply front kicking a grappler in the face will prevent most take down attempts. Not fancy, but effective. :rofl:

    Don't forget a Muay Thai knee strike to the bridge of the nose either. That will dissuade a takedown attempt.

    There is also a Wing Chun technique simply called - Bil Jee..... a rapid series of finger strikes to the eyes.

    In my experience, Wing Chun is a simple Martial Art that is complex at the same time. After 30 years studying , there is much yet to learn. My Wing Chun training has served me well in the dojo and the street.
     
  15. gr81disp

    gr81disp Bushbot v1.0

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    Sep 19, 2004
    Marietta, GA
    What if the grappler doesn't do a double or single leg? There are other takedowns, especially Judo throws. If you wish to become a complete fighter, you CANNOT ignore grappling that is all I am saying. Agarr, if you didn't take Judo or Bjj, would you be able to counter those takedowns, get your timing correct? Kit Cope is a former Light-Heavyweight and Welterweight champion in Muay Thai, but was just destroyed by "Razor" Rob McCollough last night in under 3:00. He is currently 1-4 in MMA (the closest parallel to a streetfight) with 3 losses coming on the ground. I doubt it is because he can't kick them in the face and I really doubt it is because he isn't allowed to use "teh d34dly" eye strikes, but simply because he cannot fight on the ground.
     
  16. OldRonin

    OldRonin

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    Jan 16, 2007
    Virginia
    Are you saying a trained grappler could stop the other grappler from taking him down, or that he would likely go down and try to out-grapple the attacker? If it is the former, how would the grappler keep from going down?

    What you describe does sound very tough to stop. I think a lot of this all depends on skill versus style. I don't doubt a young, strong, very fast grappling expert could probably dump me on my *ss if his timing was good. Again, it's the relative skill, not the "style".

    I have so far been able to counter the grappler's I have trained with, but that proves nothing, really.

    In an ideal world, I would cross-train in everything I could, no doubt about it. But I can't.

    Since I don't get into barfights, I wonder how many street thugs would attack me with a skilled take-down as you describe. Just a thought.
     
  17. Halojumper

    Halojumper

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    Mar 18, 2005
    Aurora, CO
    What kind of Karate were you doing? Sounds like you have reason to have a beef with your sensei/system.
     
  18. OldRonin

    OldRonin

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    Jan 16, 2007
    Virginia
    Do I have a "beef" with my karate sensei/system?

    I wouldn't call it a beef. I don't regret a single day of the many years I spent in the karate dojo. Changed me for the better, taught me how to be a warrior, put 40# of muscle on my skinny frame, gave me the fortitude to overcome what I formerly might have felt was impossible. made me able to ignore pain, deprivation, overcome fear, calm myself in crisis situations, take hits that broke my bones and keep fighting. Sure, that were the good things. The movements patterns burned deeply into my brain from kata training, once I began to be able to decode them after 7 years of training.

    Systems have limitations, because they have structures and boundaries and rules that cannot be bent or broken.

    Karate, as imported by Funakoshi and spread throughout Japan was never meant to be a self-defense system. It was a tool to build character and warrior spirit, and in the '30's, to brainwash Japanese youth into ultra-nationalism as they invaded Manchuria, the Phillipines, and ultimately into WWII. The Japanese didn't need a newer unarmed self-defense system, they had jujitsu and aikijujitsu, far more effective arts. So I trained in them, too.

    Funakoshi took out all the most effective techniques of karate so the students wouldn't hurt each other in training.

    I went to Japan in the early 80's to fight against the college shodans. They showed great etiquette, but they couldn't fight a real fight. Even the smaller women in my tour group beat the crap out of those college boys. The only Japanese I fought there that blew me away were in the late, great Gogen Yamaguchi's dojo. But it wasn't the Goju system that made them so formidable, though I think Goju has better hand work than Shotokan and its clones. Yamaguchi'sensei's students had such incredible ferocity, they couldn't grow a potted plant inside the dojo. Those guys were so fast, so ferocious, they beat us to a pulp. Humbled me right quick.
    I was a Nidan then, and thought I was pretty tough. They showed me another quantum leap up into the realm of "tough". I'm forever grateful. The butt-kicking they gave me and my colleagues taught me things I treasure to this day.

    The problem with staying "loyal" to one system is that once you are highly ranked, you can't be seen cross-training anywhere. You are trapped in a near cult system. You can't write anything the public might read that goes outside the lines, because it reflects directly on your sensei. Once you've trained for 15 years with one man, and he hasn't grown or developed in those 15 years, you are in a stagnant system. Bottom line: As a self-defense system, karate doesn't work. It was never designed to. And that's OK. It's good for what its good for, but realistic self-defense isn't it. So, I keep my iron fists and other tools and my guts, focus, and fudoshin, and go elsewhere to seek the wisdom of a range of others. Like this-- would you want to go through grad school and get your PhD, and only have one instructor the entire time?

    So if you want to learn how to move in a real-life encounter, you have to train in systems that teach close-in, fluid, non-linear movements with better strategies.

    I didn't learn to REALLY fight until I cut myself free so that I could explore other systems, learn from a variety of teachers, see different perspectives with an open mind. Absorb it all.

    The karate gave me a good, solid foundation. Without it, all my cross-training would not have been nearly as useful. But as a stand-alone system, karate and its Korean clone TKD, are not combat systems.

    The Okinawans kept all the best secrets for themselves. The Japanese didn't get them. The GI's who trained in Okinawa didn't get the real art of "Te" either.

    But this post is already far too long, so for now, I'll leave it at that.

    with respect and gratitude, and a forever open mind...


    John
     
  19. Halojumper

    Halojumper

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    Mar 18, 2005
    Aurora, CO
    I guess it all depends on what a person wants out of a martial arts system. I think that, for the most part, the Funakoshi based systems are far better at the spiritual and personal development than at teaching people to fight. Dave Lowry is popular with these types. As long as a person knows that that is what he is getting into, that's ok. All too often people who don't know any better sign up for a program that advertises Karate (often it is TKD (that's a whole other story of ineffectiveness)) and self defense and the person thinks that is what he will learn. Fortunately, most of these people really never have to use any of it to defend themselves, but when they do, they get their butt handed to them. Most of these systems are based on ridiculous interpretations of kata that bear no glimpse of reality to real fighting.
     
  20. OldRonin

    OldRonin

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    Jan 16, 2007
    Virginia
    You hit the nail on the head.

    I didn't start training for self-defense reasons. That came later. I got what I needed and moved on.

    John