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Why I religiously believe in science.

Discussion in 'Religious Issues' started by Gunhaver, Jan 10, 2013.

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  1. Cavalry Doc

    Cavalry Doc MAJ (USA Ret.)

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    I entered my medical training as an atheist. The complexity of a simple cell, and the complexity of the physiological pathways that are required to maintain homeostasis within a single cell, requiring relatively distant points within that cell all working in harmony, then cells making up complex organs that require positive and negative feedback loops and distant cooperation, and the symbiotic relationships among different organisms......

    Intellectual honesty required me to admit that it is at least possible that there is a design to life, and therefore a designer. It's also possible that it all just happened. I consider it perfectly reasonable to admit that one does not know for sure what they don't know for sure.

    It was a while later when I realized that some people need to believe they have it all figured out, and that belief required faith.... and on occasion, a little resistance to admit what they don't know.

    It's not about donkeys, well, not only about them. If you have to oversimplify the question, maybe you aren't ready to hear the answer.
     
  2. Cavalry Doc

    Cavalry Doc MAJ (USA Ret.)

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    GH, there are times to debate, and times to act. I have had people try to interject at a bad time, including shortly after someone was shot, or stabbed, or blown up, and I had to politely tell them, "I hear what you are saying, and I respect your input, but we are going to do this my way right now, and I'll explain why later. I need you to help me by......"

    I had much better responses that way than simply trying to shout them down, even though I outranked them (most of the time) and that was an option, it was rarely the best option. You've never been much of a leader, have you?



    I think you said it best when you said "the wrong hands".

    If you can't understand the differences between times where debate and action are appropriate, it may be another one of those times when it is late in the day and you have been over-practicing your freedoms again.
     

    Last edited: Jan 20, 2013

  3. Syclone538

    Syclone538

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    But it's not fraud.

    So you would send men with guns to use whatever force required, up to and including death, to stop someone from practicing medicine whos license you've revoked for posting online?

    I was really hoping to change your mind before you actually said that. That's pretty depressing. I don't really know where to go from here.

    So you NEED to chose someone who is competent. See what degree they have and from what school. See if the school has a good record of educating people in that position. See what kind of insurance they have. A very large insurance policy would be very good, because the insurance company has a huge incentive to make sure they are qualified.

    How are they going to buy insurance? Who is going to use them when they don't have any insurance and won't provide references?

    I'm glad you see that.

    I think the need is to chose the right professional.

    It's been an interesting discussion, even if it didn't end how I had hoped.
     
  4. G26S239

    G26S239 NRA Patron

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    Well if you did not know for sure you had the option to say so as a direct answer. For example Gee I am not sure that donkeys don't talk therefore I will give the anecdote about Balaam's donkey equal credibility with the likely hood that Boyle actually did the experiments that he claimed.
    And I never made any claim that it is all about donkeys. I simply asked you a rather easy question that you made a point of not answering.
    You already sidestepped the question almost two weeks ago. The time for the Master Po to Caine homily has passed.
     
  5. Cavalry Doc

    Cavalry Doc MAJ (USA Ret.)

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    Have to admit, I've never studied talking donkeys, had a conversation or two with a jackass online though, present company excluded. Had to google this balaam fellow, It's been a while since I went to bible school. I think I see the idea you are trying to get at, correct me if I am wrong. Did the guy's donkey talk? Hell if I know. Sounds doubtful. Same with fairies, dragons, mermaids. Is it very possible that a talking donkey has never existed? Why worry about it? All that is could easily be here with none of those creatures having ever existed. But when we are talking about the origins of life, there was a beginning, and it was either a random natural phenomena, something created from scratch, or maybe something that just needed a little push to get going. We are here, and how we got here is a rather profound thing. It's a question that it would be nice to know the answer too, and a lot of people have very strong beliefs about how we got here, some to the point that considering the other possibilities is very discomforting to them.

    Some way, some how, there was a beginning to life on earth, and even a beginning of the earth itself. Talking donkeys won't change that whether or not a donkey has talked or not.
     
  6. hooligan74

    hooligan74

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    Because science hasn't had the opportunity to replicate the conditions billions and billions of times, yet. No one is saying it's a sure thing, but given enough iterations even the most unlikely thing will eventually happen. Monkeys, typewriters and a sonnet....
     
  7. hooligan74

    hooligan74

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    Dude, and you chastise OTHERS for ad hominem attacks?

    :shocked:
     
  8. Cavalry Doc

    Cavalry Doc MAJ (USA Ret.)

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    I do tend to respond in kind once in a while. I do try to forgive and forget after a while, and give several second chances and start overs.

    I am certain that I have never claimed to be a saint. I do get a bit more harsh than is necessary on occasion, that may have been one of those times.

    I will try to do better. In the interest of an interesting exercise, I'll try to stop right here and now and give everyone a clean slate, no ad homs except in return.

    To be honest, it's more fun when we stick to the topic.
     
  9. Glock36shooter

    Glock36shooter

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    Yet still illegal.

    No, they would with their persistent refusal to follow the law. We're talking about hypothetical in the first place but let's walk it through. The individual has their license revoked and are fined for unprofessional conduct... conduct they knew would result in such revocation and penalties. This is their choice... their doing. To now practice medicine for them is not legal because they aren't properly licensed. They refuse to accept the consequences of their choice and CHOOSE to illegally practice medicine without a license and refuse to pay the fine. Also their choice. They had the choice to comply with the laws and regulations under which they were licensed and chose not to. The fire that ultimately comes down upon them is a consequence of their choices.

    Not everyone agrees that a society should operate on the edge of anarchy. I like a little regulation with people that could kill me with their mistakes. I think their should be stricter qualifiers for law enforcement officers as well.

    Not everyone is as bright as you and I. I mean be realistic... some people are just stupid. It's not fair that they should risk their lives for being suckered in by illegal medical practitioners.

    Why would they even need insurance? They're not licensed, why bother being insured? Like I said, some people aren't very bright.


    Sure, but what about the people that make the wrong choice? They deserve to die for it? Why are you fine risking their lives and not the outlaw's?
     
  10. certifiedfunds

    certifiedfunds Tewwowist

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    My degrees, only BS mind you, are in biology and chemistry.

    Apes: not sure but likely

    Big Band: not sure but evidence is pretty convincing

    Side note: I find it interesting that you're using the word "believe" here in reference to these theories. Science isn't based on "beliefs"
     
  11. Gunhaver

    Gunhaver the wrong hands

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    Public acceptance of science is absolutely based on beliefs. Discoveries are made but you can only get people to act on those discoveries if they "believe" those discoveries are true. I could argue with someone all day that 5+5=10 but if they refuse to believe that because some bible verse or political pundit that they would prefer to believe says otherwise then I can't help them. Their "belief" that it does not =10 will continue to negatively affect them and anyone they can convince otherwise. It will also negatively affect plenty who do believe that if the non-believers are great enough in number and have enough clout.

    So you say that you're not sure about common ancestry with apes which means that you don't fully accept the conclusions of the many whom are far more knowledgeable on the subject than you. Being convinced enough that you don't try to dissuade others from believing it is all I'm concerned about. Anything beyond that is just a matter of how much you really want to understand it.

    As for the Big Band, here's video evidence,

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGq-eCoPSwA"]Swing - Best of The Big Bands (1/3) - YouTube[/ame]
     
  12. Cavalry Doc

    Cavalry Doc MAJ (USA Ret.)

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    Any detailed modern English sworn affidavits from ancient scientists that witnessed apes evolving into either one of your parents? Eh? There's some cloudy gray area here if you will admit it. :wavey:

    Primates are similar. I get that, and it's OK with me. But, just for a second, let's pretend that whether or not they are similar, has just about nothing at all to do with the question of whether there was or was not a deity. :wavey::wavey::wavey::wavey:

    True, true, and unrelated. I'm finding an odd inability of applying cause and effect relationships among many of the religious left on my scale.
     
  13. certifiedfunds

    certifiedfunds Tewwowist

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    No sorry. I got bored reading through the gibberish. Science is based on fact and reproducibility, not belief. When you get into belief you're dealing with faith. People who believe in God deal in the same thing and in many cases have evidence to support their beliefs as well.

    Sorry. You're closed-minded.
     
  14. Syclone538

    Syclone538

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    I don't think it should be, but yeah, I agree that it is.



    They just want you to leave them alone. They have a service that they want to sell to customers who want to buy it. You want to stop them by any means necessary, by killing them if that's what it takes.



    I know, unfortunately. :supergrin:



    And I would like for people to take responsibility for themselves and do a little research before doing business with someone that could kill them with a mistake. I would like for you to not tell me I can't use someone because you don't trust them.

    On law enforcement officers, if it were up to me, there would be so many fewer laws, fewer l.e.o.s would be necessary. There would be few if any victimless "crimes".



    It's not fair that they are not as bright, but that's not my fault.



    So they don't lose everything they own if they do mess up, and to not scare away customers.

    I don't understand the question.

    Why is a license any better then a degree from a school you trust anyway?



    I'm fine with them risking their own life. I am not fine with you risking the life of the so called outlaw.
     
  15. void *

    void * Dereference Me!


    And who is saying it is "pure chance" or "accident", other than those who misrepresent the theory of evolution to begin with?

    (In strict point of fact, the theory of evolution is not a statement about how life came into being)
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2013
  16. Animal Mother

    Animal Mother Not Enough Gun

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    Do you have any detailed modern English sworn affidavits from modern scientists saying that the demonstrated genetic relationship, not similarities, between members of the family Hominidae is absolute proof that deities do not and never have existed?

    If not, can I ask why you'd make such a connection?
     
  17. Gunhaver

    Gunhaver the wrong hands

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    His responses to my posts have gotten increasingly silly and non-sequitur since I've started successfully ignoring him. I think he's just trying to get me to break my pact with G36. He misses his troll buddies.
     
  18. Cavalry Doc

    Cavalry Doc MAJ (USA Ret.)

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    Well, there is a gradient of possibilities about how life began on earth. Somewhere in between random chance and carefully designed creation is probably the truth of it. Unless it arrived here from somewhere else.

    There might be some other possibilities. What do you think.
     
  19. Cavalry Doc

    Cavalry Doc MAJ (USA Ret.)

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    Nope, but I do see a lot of people who seem to be arguing that evolution is happening, so therefore, your god does not exist, and therefore no gods exist.

    That's, of course, a very simple paraphrasing of what the argument seems to be.
     
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