close

Privacy guaranteed - Your email is not shared with anyone.

Why do we choose rounds differently?

Discussion in 'Caliber Corner' started by thegriz18, Jan 18, 2010.


  1. fredj338

    fredj338
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    21,126
    656
    Location:
    so.cal.
    Unless the bullet is designed to perform well in that vel envelope, vel. means little. Shape & composition matter more than the vel. on impact. Stable solids hitting @ say 2200fps don't do the same damage as heavy siofts @ the same vel. Increasing the vel of the solid at that point doesn't destroy more tissue. If it hits bone, that again changes the result. It's not just as simple as more vel is better.
     

    Wanna kill these ads? We can help!
  2. glock20c10mm

    glock20c10mm
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2004
    3,912
    1
    Location:
    Out West
    I don't know what you think you read in that link, but I for one would like to know in the context you're claiming.

    The ONLY place in the link you posted where 2000 fps is brought up is in direct relation to fragments of a bullet at that velocity actually penetrating tissue far enough outside the direct path of the main projectile to inflict enough damage to be worthwhile. And the speed and amount at which the permanent wound cavity expands outward. Nothing is brought up in terms of a ballistic pressure wave or any other terms many wrongly associate with BPW (hydrostatic shock...).

    This clearly shows you're not up to speed with Dr. Courtney's theory of BPW. BPW trauma is NOTHING like a sonic boom. BPW is pressure in psi measured at a location well beyond the temporary wound cavity produced by the projectile as it penetrates producing a pressure wave that continues traveling outside the temporary cavity.

    So...have you ever given this a read:
    [B]http://arxiv1.library.cornell.edu/vc/physics/papers/0702/0702107v1.pdf[/B]
     

  3. glock20c10mm

    glock20c10mm
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2004
    3,912
    1
    Location:
    Out West
    I was wondering where dosei got that from too, because it certainly wasn't from your post.

    Good Shooting,
    Craig
     
  4. unit1069

    unit1069
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2007
    8,078
    140
    Location:
    So. Central US
    I suspect this thread will soon be closed, looking at recent Glock Talk history.

    A declaration that the possibility of BPW effect in handgun calibers is a myth has been made.

    So we'll have no further discussion, debate, or introduction of scientific studies, pro or con, which only serve to confuse the unwashed masses.
     
  5. glock20c10mm

    glock20c10mm
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2004
    3,912
    1
    Location:
    Out West
    How does what dangerous game hunters choose for a round have anything to do what we choose for SD against BGs??? :headscratch:

    Doesn't recoil of the 460 Wby Mag automatically rub you the wrong way against BGs because of over penetration and recoil hindering follow up shots? Or no? :shocked:
     
  6. glock20c10mm

    glock20c10mm
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2004
    3,912
    1
    Location:
    Out West
    That's not true in the full context of what he was asking.

    You yourself have agreed more than once within your posts on GT that BPW does exist. And since we can measure it with a high speed transducer, it clearly exists!

    I have. What don't you get? Maybe you have unknown misconceptions within your own mind some of the rest of us can help you clear up as I'm sure you don't want to go away not knowing the truth.

    We're here to help,
    Craig
     
  7. coal

    coal
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2009
    311
    0
    IMO, you are asking a, "Does BPW exist in service calibers?" question, then subsequenly answering yes. You either think it does or you don't. You appear to think it does. That's opinion.

    The real question is whether BPW exists in service calibers. That remains a matter of (heated) debate. The "principle" then is in fact not definatively the same comparing rifle to service pistol if the "BPW" velocity window is not reached. That's why some folks have stated yours is an "apples to oranges" comparison. I agree because comparing 2500+fps (rifle) to 1000-1300fps (service pistol), in terms of BPW, is not "comparable" IMO.


    Ultimately, folks base selection off what they:
    1) know
    2) believe
    Always will. Both have varying levels of subjectivity.
     
  8. TwinFourFives

    TwinFourFives
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2010
    56
    0
    Most pistol rounds dont cause enough damage. a .45 that passes completely through someone won't do as much damage as a 30-06, even though the 45 is larger.

    If you read this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout#Weaponry_and_injuries

    You'll see Platt and Matix were both shot multiple times in the head and neck with 38 specials, none of those hits stopped the incident. Meanwhile Platt was using a .223 and fbi were getting hit in the arms and such and still suffering fight stopping wounds. One of them got hit in the neck, no fragmenting or yawing the bullet didnt touch the spine or arteries, but the shot still paralyzed him for the duration of the fight.
     
  9. glock20c10mm

    glock20c10mm
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2004
    3,912
    1
    Location:
    Out West
    It's not opinion. It has been measured with a high speed pressure transducer from distant locations from the impact area of the subject.

    No, again, it's been measured and will always be able to be measured.
     
  10. fredj338

    fredj338
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    21,126
    656
    Location:
    so.cal.
    Actually not true. They were hit multiple times in the body, mostly 9mm & 38sp. The headshots by Morales w/ his 38sp finished the fight. Research it further.
     
  11. glock20c10mm

    glock20c10mm
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2004
    3,912
    1
    Location:
    Out West
    Did you know some 10mm loads can produce just as much BPW as some 223 FMJ loads (not downloaded 223s either)?

    As for the officers that got hit in the arms and such, if they quit fighting immediately they chose to quit.
     
  12. thegriz18

    thegriz18
    Expand Collapse
    Paper Killer

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2007
    3,065
    0
    Location:
    Friend Zone
    If our bodies are mostly (~97%) water (tissue), then I don't see how BPW couldn't exist. When you throw a rock in a pond it makes ripples. I don't see how body tissue could be any different.
     
  13. dosei

    dosei
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2005
    3,157
    1
    Location:
    Upstate SC
    I never said BPW did not exist, it does. But the simple fact that a pressure wave is induced does not equate out to any level of trauma unless the pressure wave is sufficiently intense. Typical SD handgun calibers cannot induce a sufficiently intense pressure waves in a full grown human to impart trauma. Is velocity important? Yes, because higher velocities translate to more penetration and more reliable expansion of expanding bullets.

    The existence of a BPW does not mean there is any BPW trauma.

    Pressure waves are constantly traveling thru our bodies.
     
    #33 dosei, Jan 21, 2010
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2010
  14. Angry Fist

    Angry Fist
    Expand Collapse
    *******!!®
    Lifetime Member
    1. Glock Talk's Drunk Squad
    2. Show Me Glockers

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2009
    36,823
    3,762
    Location:
    Hellbilly Hill
    Speed Kills, at least for handguns, anyway. What is the difference between hydrostatic shock and BPW? How about small caliber 9mm x 25mm Dillon? It can push a 90 grain bullet upwards of 2000 FPS, but I choose to stay with 10mm caliber instead. Still get great speed (~1300 FPS) and with double the bullet weight and slightly larger diameters. Who wants to carry a rifle for SD anyway if you are not being paid or ordered to do so? My $.02 ain't worth it, so I'm gunna have to charge ya'll a quarter!
     
  15. dosei

    dosei
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2005
    3,157
    1
    Location:
    Upstate SC
  16. Angry Fist

    Angry Fist
    Expand Collapse
    *******!!®
    Lifetime Member
    1. Glock Talk's Drunk Squad
    2. Show Me Glockers

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2009
    36,823
    3,762
    Location:
    Hellbilly Hill
  17. Angry Fist

    Angry Fist
    Expand Collapse
    *******!!®
    Lifetime Member
    1. Glock Talk's Drunk Squad
    2. Show Me Glockers

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2009
    36,823
    3,762
    Location:
    Hellbilly Hill
    Could I make Major shooting this through a .25?:rofl:
     
  18. dosei

    dosei
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2005
    3,157
    1
    Location:
    Upstate SC
    Not a chance...actually it gets lower power factor scores.

    Example:
    RBCD 45acp
    90 grain bullet at 2036 fps Muzzle Velocity = 183240 Power Factor
    (90 x 2036 = 183240)

    American Eagle 45acp
    230 grain bullet at 890 fps Muzzle Velocity = 204700 Power Factor
    (230 x 890 = 204700)
     
  19. Angry Fist

    Angry Fist
    Expand Collapse
    *******!!®
    Lifetime Member
    1. Glock Talk's Drunk Squad
    2. Show Me Glockers

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2009
    36,823
    3,762
    Location:
    Hellbilly Hill
    I always wondered what the power factor equation was...thanks. BTW, would you carry ammo that light of weight? I bought DT 135gr 10mm, but I think I'm gunna move up to the 165+ DT, cuz with the data on that ultra-lightweight stuff, and seeing how bad DT 135 frags out, I think im gunna pass, but thanx anyway:cheers:
     
  20. dosei

    dosei
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2005
    3,157
    1
    Location:
    Upstate SC
    No I do NOT and would NOT!!!

    I am absolutely not someone that agrees with the "speed is everything and most important factor even at the expense of size and/or weight" camp. I'm a supporter of the "Big & Heavy & Fast (in that order)" camp. I carry 45acp, 185 grain DPX bullet loaded to +P from CorBon...which is the heaviest DPX bullet for 45acp. I like the DPX because it has performed exceptionally well in tests, combining deep penetration with excellent expansion. It is specifically design to not fragment at all. And it is lead-free.
     
Loading...
Similar Threads Forum Date
Why do auto paints age differently? The Okie Corral Sep 10, 2014
Why do we have government? Political Issues Jul 30, 2014
Why do you choose TO travel? The Okie Corral Mar 12, 2014
Why do you choose to not travel? The Okie Corral Mar 8, 2014
Why do we...................... The Lighter Side May 30, 2003
Duty Gear at CopsPlus