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What's with testing HP ammo on 4 layers of denim?

Discussion in 'Caliber Corner' started by Nakanokalronin, Feb 19, 2012.

  1. Nakanokalronin

    Nakanokalronin JMB & MTK

    May 13, 2008
    I just bought an LCR and was checking around with what people are using for defense. I have a bunch of PDX-1 .38spl +P ammo that got good results with a single layer of denim and gel, bare gel and water jugs. I checkout Youtube and 2 guys have done gel tests with this round but they use either 2 or 4 layers of denim and got good penetration but no expansion.

    I did some more searching and found some actual incidents where the PDX-1 .38spl was used in a defensive shooting out of snub. Not only did it get over 12" of penetration, but it expanded to over .62 and stopped the threat quickly.

    Last time I checked, a pair of jeans is basically one layer of denim and a shirt is one layer of cotton. If someone wanted to test for jacket material or leather, why not use that on top of the gel instead of 4 layers of jean material? I don't think anyone wears 4 pairs of jeans nor do they wear 4 jean material shirts.

    Am I over thinking this or is there some reason 4 layers of denim seems like an impractical test for expansion and clogging of the HP cavity? If you want to test for defense in winter, use a beat up old jacket if you want to keep it as real as possible.
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2012
  2. dkf


    Aug 6, 2010

    The denim is used to simulate clothing and can have a very negative effect on expansion with some bullets. Of course that doesn't mean the bullet will not expand in real life.
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2012

  3. DRT


    May 6, 2001
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2012
  4. Nakanokalronin

    Nakanokalronin JMB & MTK

    May 13, 2008
    It seems when it comes to wood, drywall and car door material, real case scenarios have been tested for this hard material.

    When it comes to clothing, nobody seems to use anything but denim as a test. In reality, I'd like to see a test done with a single layer of denim, a test done with a cloth shirt and a test done with a winter and leather jacket. I wish I had a place to do this myself, but I don't. The material itself could be bought at a second hand store on the cheap and cut into smaller pieces for many tests like they do with the jeans.
  5. Nakanokalronin

    Nakanokalronin JMB & MTK

    May 13, 2008
    Thanks for that link! Some good reading and it seems I WAS basically over thinking it. The thing is, even though it's not a realistic clothing barrier test, most take the failures to expand in 4 layers of denim as a bad HP bullet and check it off the list as an adequate SD load.

    That link should be posted before any tests so the person reading or watching these test will not think what they're seeing is set in stone. I always wondered about the multiple layers of denim but I thought I'd finally ask about it.
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2012
  6. smokeross

    smokeross GTDS Member #49

    May 15, 2011
    Cause the BG might be wearing a denim coat, vest, shirt, and denim long johns. Course up here all that would be covered with a bear skin parka, so time to up the testing standards.
  7. cowboy1964


    Sep 4, 2009
  8. In case we are attacked by Canadians. :rofl: Terrorists wearing the dreaded Canadian Tuxedo, jeans and denim jacket with denim shirt and vest.
  9. fastbolt


    Jun 9, 2002
    CA Central Coast
    Think of the 4-layer denim test as being an engineering "acid test".

    There's been a correlation observed between hollowpoints which exhibit consistently robust expansion in the 4-layer test and those recovered from actual shootings. No guarantees, though.
  10. Brasso

    Brasso Millennium Member

    It's a worst case scenario. If the bullet both expands and penetrates under 4 layers of denim....I'm using that bullet. You guys can use something else if you want to.