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What schools teach ground work/grappling?

Discussion in 'The Martial Arts Forum' started by mhill, Apr 6, 2005.


  1. mhill

    mhill
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    Which styles out there teach good ground work and grappling? I'd like to learn some submission moves. I basically have no fighting skills on the ground. I took Judo and know basic wrestling.

    mhill
     

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  2. gr81disp

    gr81disp
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    Basic, all-around = Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu (NOT Japanese).

    Some Judo schools are really good also. Sambo, and Catchwrestling. Go here http://www.bjj.org/academies/ for bjj schools.
     

  3. Roundeyesamurai

    Roundeyesamurai
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    This is incorrect- the difference between 'Brazilian' and 'Japanese' Jujutsu styles, is largely in the instructional method, not as much in the techniques themselves. Brazilian Jiu Jutsu, simply put, is katame waza writ large.

    It would be more appropriate to say "If you're looking for a system which specializes in...", and then recommend 'BJJ'. The "NOT Japanese", comment, without further discussion, looks a little bit too much like "my style is better than (blank)'s style".

    Be careful, also, about making commentary about "all styles of Jujutsu"- remember, at one point in time in Japan's history, the term "jujutsu" was as broad as the modern term "unarmed combat", encompassing scores of different methods, some of which bore very little resemblance to one another.

    Now, having said that, I would second the recommendation for 'BJJ'.
     
  4. gr81disp

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    One could make the same argument for Judo but when talking about specializing, the chances of finding a JJJ school with good ne waza is much less likely.
     
  5. Adam Thiel

    Adam Thiel
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    Brazilian Jiujitsu all the way. If you're a former wrestler, you're going to LOVE this stuff. It's basically everything illegal that you wanted to do in wrestling but couldn't ;) , and then some.
     
  6. Mntneer357

    Mntneer357
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    My style is Shintoyoshin Jiu-jitsu...and we do a great deal of ground-fighting. Our style, though Japanese, is heavily influenced by Chinese hitting styles (baguazang, hsing-yi). We get much of our ground fighting drills/skills from both the Gracies and the Machado brothers to augment our "curriculum".

    Improvise. Overcome. Adapt.

    Cheers!
    Mntneer357
     
  7. Adam Thiel

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    Bagua's great stuff. Hands-down the best combat throws I've ever seen. A teacher out here in So. CA by the name of Tim Cartmell teaches this stuff, and he also cross trains in BJJ. If you guys ever get a chance to train with him, do so. His Bagua style is very grappling oriented, and it leads very nicely into the ground fighting of BJJ. His throwing technique is the best I've ever seen.
     
  8. cobain187

    cobain187
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    Just remember that BJJ and other grappeling styles are SPORT and not Self-defense. Jiu jitsu is great for subduing a drunken relative at the family bbq, but will get you seriously injured or killed if used to defend yourself in a deadly encounter.

    Stay Safe.
     
  9. Roundeyesamurai

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    Do you have anything with which to substantiate this?

    Broad, sweeping, derogatory generalizations are what cause other martial arts forums to go down the toilet- this is a board for discussion, not for characterization.
     
  10. gr81disp

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    You are correct, which is why they teach it at police academies, to Marines, US Army Rangers, etc. ;Q
     
  11. ARH

    ARH
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    I suppose it was only ever going to be a matter of time.;Q
     
  12. fastvfr

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    You might want to look into Aikido.

    It is a very fluid form of fighting that can make its practicioners even more deadly when fighting from the ground.

    This isn't to say that Aikido training specifically teaches ground fighting. Instead it teaches harmony and efficiency of movement so that you can turn any situation you might find yourself in into an advantageous one.

    How many people do you know that are prepared to fight with and close with a man who is comfortable fighting from the deck? Few that I know could.

    IMHO Bruce Lee's "Jeet Kune Do" (Way of No Way, more or less) is still a sound approach, in that you will be best served by combining a variety of skills with your personal interpretation of the style you train with to be both highly lethal and totally unpredictable.

    A strong mixture of Aikido, Ju-jitsu and Kung-fu (or Togakure Ryu, or Greco-Roman wrestling, or...?), when tailored to an individual's strengths to best cover his or her weaknesses, will leave most cops, Marines and SF soldiers of average skill in a bloody tangle simply because they have never faced such an opponent, are usure as to what might come next in the way of offense or defense, and are therefore not in their element.

    To train in only one disipline is, to my mind, willingly preparing to fail in battle.

    It is only by taking as many useful concepts from as many widely varied sources as possible that one can hope to achieve their pinnacle of martial effectiveness.
     
  13. Deputydave

    Deputydave
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    Actually he is making a valid point. BJJ is a sport with SD applications. However the sporting applications are what has given it an identity. For example, I know Royce personally. He teaches at SEPSI occasionally. This is where I teach academy and in-service classes to LEO and Corrections in HL areas. He is a GREAT guy and this in NO WAY is meant as a flame towards him. But he did have to modify what he teaches as a result of feedback that he received from Officers. In other words, what and how he teaches BJJ now differs from what he did originally.

    A great example of what I'm talking about took place in the parking lot after class about day 4 of a 5 day BJJ for LE course. My friend [retired NYPD and current Tae KiDo Instructor] bumped into a couple of LEOs talking about how great the BJJ course was. My friend asked them what they were learning and why it was so great. After a lengthy description, my friend [always the cynic ;) ] asked them a very simple question, "How much of what you learned could you actually use on the street?" The Officer got a strange look on his face, cocked his head to one side then said, "Well....none of it really."

    Then why train in it? If you are going to go into competitions like the UFC and Pride etc then BJJ is great! If you're only interested in SD then you definately don't need BJJ [in it's typical sport application venue]. And it is not an easy task to find non-sport BJJ just the same as non-sport TKD.

    Here is a great reason, and one of many. Sport grappling that emphasizes going for the take-down, arm bar or submission is great in competitions when there is a soft mat or canvas, a referee, a controlled environment, rules, time outs, tap outs, no weapons and an opponent that abides by the same rules and really doesn't want to kill you. Now lets translate that to a dark parking lot, between parked cars with broken glass or debris on the asphalt, no rules and the Bg is determined, has a weapon and possibly friends aiding him. That training is great in the ring and a detriment in the street.

    I know lots of people who may not agree, thats fine. However I would never train any of my students any type of submission type techniques for the same reason I would never teach any tippy-tap point sparring, it simply doesn't work for serious SD.

    Again it all depends on what your goal is.
     
  14. gr81disp

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  15. Deputydave

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    Thank you for the correction, I was typing and doing several other things at the same time. However, it really doesn't matter if anyone believes I know him or not ;Q The points are valid.
     
  16. gr81disp

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    Editted above to make me sound like less of an !@#hole.
     
  17. Adam Thiel

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    Most of the guys I have trained with are black belts in other systems. You're crazy to just limit yourself to one system. However, a good base in grappling is the one thing you cannot be without. As for the sport vs. street-fighting thing, most of the guys that spend any length of time in Jiujitsu know the difference, and they train for it. There are a lot of techniques you can do on the street that you cannot do in a tournament, i.e. neck cranks/breaks, eye gouging, heel hooks, strikes, etc. And cross training in other systems is crucial. If you're serious about Jiujitsu, eventually you will address these issues. BJJ is not a sport-only system. People see the UFC and think that's all there is. Nothing could be further from the truth.
     
  18. ARH

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    That is wrong. It is a martial art that has both self defence and sport applications.

    Well it certainly is impressiev to finally meet someone that won't be hindered by a broken arm or leg, or can't be choked unconscious!

    And it isn't like any of those escapes ever come in handy...;Q
     
  19. Deputydave

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    Not in the form I've seen taught as recently as last year in LEO only courses. Does it have 'street' value? Yes. Is the 'street' aspect what is selling it? No. It's feed to those that think the UFC is as real as a street encounter.

    Well I don't have a big red 'S' on my chest but I've 'sparred' with students of Karl Gotch and haven't been choked out yet. Haven't gotten anything broken either. And neither has any of my students. We simply don't fight 'their' fight.

    And escapes are great, the realistic and practical ones anyway.
     
  20. Adam Thiel

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    I think one of the weak links in BJJ for a long time was the fact that it did not emphasize take downs and sprawls like wrestling does. These may be the most important aspects of the fight, to dictate where the fight takes place, to be able to stand up and get away from the fight if need be, to be able to stay on top. Escapes are vital. Since we're all here on Glock Talk, no doubt in a deadly situation, we'd rather shoot than try to play Bruce Lee. I don't plan on taking on two or more guys without a handgun, if I can help it.