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What makes a quality rifle?/Is my rifle "good enough?" (merged threads)

Discussion in 'Black Rifle Forum' started by surf, Feb 19, 2011.

  1. Surf, seems as though your OP is oriented toward the "what rifle should I buy?" questions. And you mention knowing about the shooter as being important.

    Ok, what rifle should I buy?

    First thing you need to know about me is I have a wife. Purchases need joint approval. She has ideas for any extra money the household has. A new gun isn't a priority for her. Ok, she'll let me spend $500. She won't be happy when tax takes it to $580, but she'll adjust to that. A purchase price over $600 would be a big violation.

    So, from the husband's point of view, it is "What can I get for X dollars?" Knowing full well that the purchase has to be made before an unexpected car repair, or need for a new kitchen stove, changes the wife's mind.

    Now about the husband. I'm not a soldier, not LEO, don't live in a high crime area, don't often go to the bad parts of town. I can hunt just fine with my existing $400 scoped .30-06 bolt-action. At the bench, it only shoots 2" groups at 100 yards. Most hunting shots are only out to 75 yards in the woods. Off-hand I can hit a 6" circle reliably at 100 yards, so I figure I'm good to go.

    For protection, I've always got my Glock 26 on me. I'm casual IDPA, qualified as Marksman. I figure I can shoot better than 90% of the people I see at the range. If Navy Seals come after my home, I'd be in trouble. But otherwise, I feel pretty confident I can protect my home if some local thief decides to become an armed thug and threaten mayhem.

    I've got 30 other guns of various types, rifles, pistols, shotguns. Some from when I was a kid, some specifically for the wife, some for teaching. Runs from bird hunting to .22lr bullseye at the local club. Happen to do some NRA pistol instructing to newbies, and help people get their permits.

    For $500, might find a good deal on a Savage 10FP .308, with a cheap scope. Did that, and got .75" 100 yard groups. A different year, another $500 limit, might decide to get a Saiga 16", 7.62x39, sidemount detachable scope, kept in sporter stock. Cool gun, fills a potential home defense role if needed. Newbies like to shoot it too. 300 rounds a year, no jams, clean once a year.

    Ok, how about a $1,000 rifle? $1,500? Come on wife, I've been good. Maybe a bulls eye pistol, S&W 41. Maybe a Colt Python? Maybe a Glock 10mm (and not spend so much)? Or maybe an AR?

    Ok, it is agreed, $1,500 is the limit. Wife on board with it. Husband doesn't necessarily want to spend all that because he's also thinking of getting a couple dirt-bikes for him and his 7yr old son next year (will be 8 then). Still he's always kinda wanted an AR. Has an Interarms Mark X scoped .223 bolt that can't stabilize 62gr, but gets 1.25" at 100 yards with 55gr soft point Black Hills. Good light woodchuck gun, for humping in the fields. Has delivevered quite a few off-hand head shots over the years. Would be nice if the AR could shoot the same ammo.

    Don't need to scope the AR, but maybe would. Not sure. Maybe go old school with iron sights. Maybe a 3x9 scope. Maybe a red dot. Short M-4 style or longer A2 style? Don't know. Kinda like the old Vietnam War era look of the M-16. Should the AR look like that? Mainly will use at the range, or in the back yard. Live in the country. Maybe hunt varmits, but already have the bolt .223 and a lever .22mag for that. Maybe home defense, but there's not much need for that. I keep a Beretta 92, 15round mags at the ready for that, in addition to my carry gun so it is ready for the wife. Also have that Saiga ready to go. The AR is more for just wanting an AR, for the fun of shooting it.

    Can the AR shoot 5.56 ok, and still be ok with .223, especially 55gr soft points? Never ever jam? (That was one reason for getting the Saiga). Will it be capable of less than 2" groups at 100 yards out of the box? (if I scope it, or get real good with irons). Even the Saiga does 3.5" in my hands and cheap Wolf ammo. Could the AR also handle heavier ammo if I wanted it to, without keyholing like my Interarms Mark X does with the 62gr? Will it take all kinds of mags easy? NY is a ban state, so I can't be too choosey about the pre-ban mags I might find.

    Oh, would it be legal for some sort of CMP match? Not sure what clubs do that, but maybe I'd look into it. Heck, maybe my own club does it. I've been more involved with pistol.

    So, I don't know if I'm typical or atypical, but this is how I'm approaching the potential buy of an AR. And a little horsey on the side probably gets bonus points because while I've got 5 S&W in my house, I don't have any Colts. :)

    Cool, I'm a category A+!
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2012
  2. Sporaticus

    Sporaticus Aw sheet main

    1,013
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    Finally made 1000 posts

    "I spent $4k on my rifle for bragging rights. Don't tell me your $900 rifle is just as good, just because it suits your needs and never fails".
     


  3. FireForged

    FireForged Millenium #3936 Millennium Member

    4,338
    147
    Dec 25, 1999
    Rebel South
    I have been shooting black rifles since the 80's. I have owned many and I could probably purchase a motor-home with all the money I spent sending lead down range. Honestly, I have not shot my black rifle once, in the past year. I am not sure what that exactly means to other people but to me- that fact in a of itself doesnt lend much insite to my personality, training, skills, music or cut of steak that I like.
     
  4. mjkeat

    mjkeat

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    Midwest
    I think this is once again appropriate.
     
  5. Clutch Cargo

    Clutch Cargo Amsterdam Haze

    1,050
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    Nov 29, 2010
    DFW
    As far as a "self-defense" rifle goes, I have but one: Daniel Defense M4 with Eotech 512. Did I pass the test? :whistling:
     
  6. It's stupid, condescending bull**** and merely the opinion of a Chart Fan Boy with a lot of time on his hands. It shouldn't be a sticky, and the fact it is, reflects poorly on this Black Rifle Forum.

    Look how he describes people in stupid category A. "Impress people, to be brought out at parties". This is a childish attack on anyone that doesn't agree with him on brand. Category B: "dedicated weekend warrior". WTF?

    Which category covers someone who buys Noveske because it's the only rifle he would trust his life to in N Dallas, and takes pictures of himself on the range wearing a drop leg pistol holster with 30 round magazine in a Glock? Is that a "dedicated weekend warrior" in spite of him buying Noveske?

    What about the categories he left out?

    Category E: Immature people who never see combat, want bragging rights, and want to be considered the GTBRF guru.

    People who buy because they are afraid of another ban and don't want to spend $2k+ on a rifle and ammo?

    People who have a life, don't live on gun boards, and genuinely know very little about brands, and are told at the LGS that all they need is Stag, RRA, or Bushmaster.

    People wanting one for competition, but is on a budget, and doesn't see losing a match as justification for spending double the money. And having nothing to do with impressing ninjas or winning a gold medal.

    People who want an EBR, but have kids in college or private school, and has their priorities in order.

    People who want an EBR but have families with needs and make the mature parental decision that their children's needs come first.

    People who DO NOT live in N Dallas, and don't see much combat.

    My category: People who reload, shoot a lot, own Colt and BCM, and bought a couple beaters to paint camo and use on coyotes, and didn't want to paint the Colt or BCM.

    I can make up as many categories as the OP, but without appearing to think I am superior and without the condescension. And there are a lot more types of people than those that fit in his narrow minded 4 categories.

    The fact this made a sticky is a reflection on the type of Black Rifle Forum this is. Mostly a bunch of small minded, childish, amateur wannabees who think spending a ton of money on a rifle, and reading Arfcom and M4carbine.net makes them an expert.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2012
  7. Your post is anything but realistic. It's more silly than anything.
     
  8. P99er

    P99er AKA PPQ'er

    1,430
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    My own little world
    sometimes it's hard leaving them to their delusions.



    No need, everyone but the knuckleheads already know.


    Imagine, all AR shooters fit into 4 categories. :upeyes:
     
  9. surf

    surf

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    Jul 7, 2010
    You obviously miss the intent of the thread and the tongue in cheek generalizations on groupings of people that is often made fun of on forums. Rather that people should be realistic about what their uses are for the rifle, what their budget entails and make choices that will make THEM happy about their purchase no matter what they choose. Ya know, being an informed buyer.

    Perhaps when you get your panties out of a bunch you will feel better. Until then you have absolutely no clue what your talking about in regards to many things you said.
     
  10. mjkeat

    mjkeat

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    Jun 17, 2009
    Midwest
    The detractors will always be there. The funny part is they are the ones who could use the most help.

    This thread was stickied for a good reason.
     
  11. mjkeat

    mjkeat

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    Jun 17, 2009
    Midwest
    When you don't have a choice. This is not the case for most of us however.
     
  12. glock031

    glock031

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    Jun 18, 2010
    IMO...You guys should let Woodenplank take the lead. He handles questions in a precise but yet non condescending way. The few months that he's taken the lead this place finally started looking like a forum with new members and exchanges in a civil tone.

    The good old boys amounted to a private club here with GD type discussion. Some are always confrontational too.



    OK done carry on.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2012
  13. P99er

    P99er AKA PPQ'er

    1,430
    577
    Oct 21, 2001
    My own little world

    Then I missed the intent too. Probably because it sounded so much like those who were complimenting you on it.


    It's a good point, but there are too many guru wannabes.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2012
  14. bigmoney890

    bigmoney890

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    Nov 8, 2011
    Boone, NC
    +1 on this. Not taking away from Surf, but Plank is on the forum more regularly.
     
  15. surf

    surf

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    Jul 7, 2010
    Perhaps you should have read the entire thread closely before commenting. Especially the follow up discussion, where I clearly explain things. I wrote this post nearly two years ago. It has only been stickied for a few months. I have no clue how it got stickied, nor did I ask for either of my posts to be stickied. I didn't even realize they were up there for at least a couple weeks after.

    I have no intent on being anyone's "Guru". I try to provide accurate information on this platform that many years has taught me professionally from within this industry from development, maintenance, training and real world doing. I still get paid to do this professionally full time, but I still take the time to offer advice because I wish to help the general shooting community as a whole grow. It only helps everyone. There is a reason that some really good people abandoned this place. Just take a look at the some of the above assinine posts and it becomes clear.

    As mentioned there is a good reason that this forum has lost some good input from very knowledgeable guys. When you get PM's from moderators basically apologizing for the idiots behaviors that says quite a bit. It's no wonder some of us stick to other sites to offer information instead of attempting to help other sites overcome their less than stellar reputations. As in attempting to grow the community in a positive manner.

    Ya know, its funny. I have only been here a couple of years and attempted to interject some sanity in that good ole' boy network with accurate information backed by real world experience and not just what someone has read. I was told time and time again, to never mind GT, yet I still attempt to share relevant information. Sure it would be easy to stick to another forum which is truly recognized for their Industry Professionals or Subject Matter Experts, or civilian shooting community that takes this topic to be a bit more than recreational, but sharing and growing the entire shooting community is supposed to be what forums are all about.

    Having said that, I really hope that I am not being lumped into that good ole boy category. I do not speak on topics that I have only read about. My experience is from doing, not just reading or talking about it. I am always civil when spoken to in the same manner and more than tolerable when people become *******s, as can be seen in this thread. Which is also why I have ignored much of what has been said until now. Some of them clearly have no clue about that of which they speak. My username is the same over at M4C. If my information that I offer is more meaningful coming from that site then by all means ask it there. Who I am and my credentials are more than verified by the staff and many members who frequent that site.

    Hope this helps.
     
  16. bigmoney890

    bigmoney890

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    Boone, NC
    Sorry Surf, I made a huge stink about us not having any informative stickies and apparently the mods took note of it because the next morning I woke up, boom! we had stickies!!! I was very pleased with the two they chose as well

    I wish I had of been able to take advantage of some of those we lost to other forums, but since there isn't anything I can do about it, I'm just going to continue to take full advantage of who we still have. I was not in anyway trying to offend or discredit you, I was just pointing out that you rarely chime in anymore. People like WoodenPlank, Big Bird, Mcvician, and a few others are frequent users here and from my point of view have always been as impartial as possible, and have a good amount of knowledge to share.

    Despite the recent arguments, I hope you continue to stick around and lend your knowledge to anyone that is in need (like myself)! :wavey:
     
  17. surf

    surf

    1,019
    4
    Jul 7, 2010
    Hey, I have no problem with them being stickies and am not upset in the least. I think others may take issue of it because I happen to have a couple that were made stickies. While I believe the information is relevant and important that new shooters to this platform should understand about #1 themselves and shooting style and #2 about this weapon platform in general, it will save A LOT of new shooters, A LOT of potential grief down the road. So I get the sticky thing. Apparently others may feel that I am some "read it on the internet, guru"? No harsh feelings at all and I apologize if I am coming off that way. Those who have interacted with me over the years online know I maintain a pretty even keel, even when the detractors come knocking.



    Again no offense taken. I agree that you should glean information from these guys, their information and experiences are something that we can all learn from. It is sad however, when there are those who attempt to make this forum a hostile environment, which often times makes people go elsewhere. Which is another huge reason I don't frequent the site that much anymore. Don't sweat it in the least. :)
     
  18. glock031

    glock031

    629
    0
    Jun 18, 2010
    Ya know, its funny. I have only been here a couple of years and attempted to interject some sanity in that good ole' boy network with accurate information backed by real world experience and not just what someone has read. I was told time and time again, to never mind GT, yet I still attempt to share relevant information. Sure it would be easy to stick to another forum which is truly recognized for their Industry Professionals or Subject Matter Experts, or civilian shooting community that takes this topic to be a bit more than recreational, but sharing and growing the entire shooting community is supposed to be what forums are all about.

    Having said that, I really hope that I am not being lumped into that good ole boy category. I do not speak on topics that I have only read about. My experience is from doing, not just reading or talking about it. I am always civil when spoken to in the same manner and more than tolerable when people become *******s, as can be seen in this thread. Which is also why I have ignored much of what has been said until now. Some of them clearly have no clue about that of which they speak. My username is the same over at M4C. If my information that I offer is more meaningful coming from that site then by all means ask it there. Who I am and my credentials are more than verified by the staff and many members who frequent that site.

    Hope this helps.[/QUOTE]


    ----------------------------------

    Surf, In no way was i refering to you. I know your the OP of this thread but my post had nothing to do with your post here or any posts of yours.

    You are a positive on any forum that's for sure. Your knowlege speaks volumes and you are never confrontational....
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2012
  19. mc1911

    mc1911

    774
    261
    Nov 25, 2011
    I think the best idea is to do some research,including talking to real users not just online commandos. Then buy the best you can afford, that meets or even exceeds your needs.

    Some where in a forum a question was asked "how do I tell a friend that the new AR he bought was a piece of crap?"

    If the reliability, durability and accuracy meets the owners goals it does not need to be a 3000 dollar wonder gun.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2012