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What if they approach while you are holding them at gunpoint?

Discussion in 'Carry Issues' started by poodleshooter1, Aug 24, 2011.

  1. Sam Spade

    Sam Spade Staff Member Lifetime Member

    May 4, 2003
    Personally, I'd expect that someone who can be trusted or trained to use deadly force can be trusted or trained to articulate why he used deadly force.

    I admit that there are many people that I wouldn't want anywhere near me with a gun, but that's a separate discussion.
  2. RussP

    RussP Super Moderator Moderator

    Jan 23, 2003
    Central Virginia
    "Will be clueless", "are clueless", different.

  3. dnuggett

    dnuggett PRO 2A

    Feb 28, 2005
    DFW TX
  4. 45gunner


    Jun 30, 2005
    Hypothetical situation. Im a photographer walking in downtown louisville on the waterfront and im approached by one or two people and they want to steal my camera. They grab my camera and I struggle with them. I get punched or kicked and things start to escalate. Its dark. I don't know if they have a weapon on them or not. I pull a weapon a shot one or both them.

    Under krs 503.080 part b is this a justifiable shooting!
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2012
  5. Maybe someone in KY can respond to the specifics of your question, but I think the take-a-way from all these are the "shoot-don't shoot" scenarios everyone can come up with.

    During my CCW class the instructor taught how important it is for every CCW student to spend the time thinking of these scenarios, creating a response and then find what the law might say. This creates the best way for a CCW permit holder to have the best knowledge base to be a responsible permit holder and still protect themselves and their family.

    You’ll spend thousands and thousands of hours carrying a handgun to maybe use for a few seconds to save your life or property, shouldn’t you spend a few hours on doing the research to make sure you make the right choice when you need the weapon?
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2012
  6. MtnBiker

    MtnBiker NRA Member Millennium Member

    Jun 19, 1999
    Two feet is WAY too close. STOP OR I'LL SHOOT.... BANG... (BANG being almost immediate). BTW, as always, shot placement is critical; especially to prevent "He said, She said" in a courtroom afterward.
  7. FireForged

    FireForged Millenium #3936 Millennium Member

    Dec 25, 1999
    Rebel South
    I dont think that I would ever be holding someone at gun point (in public). There is the excpetion of "momentary mili-second" while I decide if they are going to comply with me..but thats it. I simply am not going to "capture" anyone for anything. If I have to use my firearm, I will use it... If I dont have to use it... I will be leaving post haste.

    If I have to point a firearm, it will likely be becaues I expect to be pulling the trigger. If a person who comming at me, stops... I will take that opportunity to leave.

    capturing people in public, securing them, detaining them or chasing them is all a plan for failure in my book.
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2012
  8. janice6

    janice6 Silver Member

    Apr 4, 2006
    Each individual experiencing the original scenario will have to come to a specific conclusion as to what they will do WHEN THEY (YOU) FEEL THEIR LIFE IS THREATENED. You must think of this now. This is the condition which caused you to draw deadly force in the first place.

    Some of you, when push comes to shove, will not be able to kill another human being under any circumstances, some will kill right away because of overriding abject fear (justifiable or not), some will have to believe their lives are still in danger and subsequently shoot because their "final line" has been crossed.

    I do believe each of you will (as I have) have to evaluate the specific situation for yourselves and know what your final limit is to pull the trigger. Trying to change others "opinions of what is right", because YOU think you have the answer for everyone else, will have no actual bearing on the final outcome.

    What is important here is to understand that you have to have the mindset to do what you have to do, and not be indecisive when the time comes. You have to decide what your life is worth to you, and how to best preserve it.

    Remember, you, and only you, will have to try to convince some strangers that you truly believed you did what you had to do to survive, and had no other recourse.

    Then, see if these strangers concur with your decision. In the end, do you feel it is worth it to be alive, but serve prison time for a bad or questionable decision, survive the trial and go free, or do you die right there with your last thought being that you MAY have made the right choice. You will have to accept the decision you made on the spur of the moment.

    This isn't a pi$$ing contest, it will be your life or death. Make the decision of what life is worth to you and then do what you have to do.
  9. blk69stang


    Jan 10, 2011
    If you were in fear for your life before, and now they drop their weapon and are advancing on you, they're not advancing because they want to give you a hug. A reasonable person would believe that the BG is advancing to try to get your weapon and kill you with it.

    "Don't come any closer or I shoot!"
    [BG moves closer despite warning]

    Pretty easy to articulate you feared for your life. He already showed means, opportunity, and intent to hurt/kill you. Then, after being warned that he would be shot if he came closer, he came closer anyway. Someone not afraid of being shot, who has already shown an intent to hurt/kill you is a deadly adversary. If he got close enough, he would kill you. VERY reasonable fear for your life right there.

    At my agency, such a shooting would be deemed justified under our use of force continuum (and would be within policy for Agent involved shootings too!)
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2012
  10. sourdough44


    Jul 23, 2007
    Sorry, I didn't read everything. I remember several instances over the years when a private citizen pulled on a perp. The perp was actively shooting. When told to 'stop', 'freeze' or whatever, he didn't. The CCW holder was slow to react when the perp swung his muzzle their way. The CCW holder got shot.

    I feel it all goes back to the reason you pulled & got involved in the 1st place. Of course the CCW holder operates without any legal department backing them up. Just something to think about before it comes up. There is a time to talk & may come a time to shoot. It may change very fast too.
  11. Ducowti


    Jan 11, 2009
    This is the single most poignant reply to your topic.
  12. Jon_R


    May 3, 2009
    Central Florida

    If I am in fear of death or grave bodily harm I shoot them numerous times until I no longer feel that threat. The rest can be sorted out later.

    If they had forced entry in my home if they are armed or not or even if they brought weapons at all or not does not matter.
  13. BADOS


    Oct 4, 2012
    Shoot and kill because your life was threatened. If you shot them in the back while they retreated, then there might be a problem.
    Love Florida's stand your ground law.
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2012
  14. Bren

    Bren NRA Life Member

    Jan 16, 2005
    No, but it is a justified shooting under KRS 503.050 (self-defense), because the crime is robbery in the second degree, which is a "felony involving the use of force."

    To be justified under KRS 503.080, the robbery would have to be in your home.

    This is a specific issue I address in law enforcement training, because it is legal to use deadly force, under state law, to stop things like a robbery 2nd and an assault 3rd (minor assault or a bus driver, school volunteer, police, etc.) but that would be a civil rights violation under federal law, if done by a government agent.
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2012
  15. BADOS


    Oct 4, 2012
    With all do respect, here's the thing...if you have to think about this, don't carry the gun. The perp will kill you. I had a friend who owned a gun that he kept for protection in his home. Someone broke into his house and he chose not to use the gun he kept loaded in his drawer. Instead he grabbed the guy and the guy killed him. You must kill the perp dead so he has no say. If you can't do this without thinking about it, don't use the gun.
  16. 45gunner


    Jun 30, 2005
    Thanks for the reply.
    Looks like the law has been changed slightly sight I got my CCW training. Exp
    (felony involving the use of force, or under those circumstances permitted pursuant to KRS 503.055.)
    Will continue to carry when photographing in that area. Assuming I don't get my car spray painted !
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2012
  17. CA Escapee

    CA Escapee Finally!

    Feb 15, 2012
    Or, if you live in Boulder you'd just dial 911 at that point. :rofl:
  18. Bren

    Bren NRA Life Member

    Jan 16, 2005
    There were major changes to Chapter 503 in 2006, including the part I mentioned about felonies involving force. You should go read the current version of the chapter - mainly, KRS 503.050, .070 and .085. KRS 503.055 is mentioned a lot, but doesn't really change much.
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2012
  19. glock30user


    May 31, 2007
    To be completely honest, if I draw my gun I WILL be shooting. I can not think of any situation where I would draw and then pause for a conversation or any other action besides me pulling the trigger.