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What could have been the AFP's new service rifle

Discussion in 'Band of Glockers' started by CatsMeow, Sep 2, 2007.

  1. Hi all,

    when I was in Dumaguete, I retrieved a photograph I took during the 1992 airshow in Villamor Air Base (where the NAIA-3 terminal is now), and had it scanned.

    Take a look at the two rifles at the upper corner. They look like Armalite AR-18s, but have an M16 style carrying handle and M16 buttstock. Could this have been what remained of the Elisco AR-180 project, or an attempt to revive the same? I never saw these again.

    The M16 at the left displayed the infamous local plastic magazine, while the baby Armalite at the bottom sported a locally-made M203. I don't know who made the .38 caliber revolver.
  2. horge

    horge -=-=-=-=- Lifetime Member

    Jan 22, 2004
    almost home
    Wish the photo's had better resolution.

    AFAIK, there were no production nits out of the abortive AR-180
    initiative. Timing was everything. If Marcos hadn't been kicked out
    when he was, The AFP would today have a superior weapon, locally manufactured and owned.

    No regrets whatsoever, though. :)

  3. That's the best I could do; it was a friend's film camera, focus-free and pre-digital era, and scanning further degraded its resolution. Perhaps some other BoGs saw and photographed it from a better angle?:)

    I'm pretty sure some of you made it a point never to miss an airshow, especially after the 1991 airshow at VAB when the Russians showcased their MiGs and Sukhois, among others.:thumbsup:
  4. chowchow


    Jan 15, 2007
    I was there in 1991, saw the Russian SU 27 made aerobatic manuevers. Awesome esp when the pilot perform cobra attack mode.
  5. I believe some time around the late 90's, early 2000, Russia sent over a MIG 29 two seater on a sales pitch visit.

    I remember it flying over Metro Manila, looked very nice.

    It was right after the sale of Bonifacio.

    Back then the government had money to consider buying aircraft:-(
  6. isuzu


    Jul 3, 2005
    North America
    The MIGs have hydraulics in their system, so they're not too hard to maintain. Sayang lang, we weren't able to get a chance to buy those.

    Just like after E. Germany collapsed. Germany was willing to trade their AKs and other military hardware which were stored in huge warehouses for food with the Philippines, among them bananas (E. Germany was alien to bananas when it was still a communist country). E. Germany wanted to get rid of their firearms at the soonest possible time; guarding the warehouses proved to be expensive.

    Since there was no money involved, the politicians or maybe the military higher ups lost interest in the deal. The metals turned as scrap, while the gunpowder was processed into fertilizer.

    Were we better off with AKs if the deal pushed through? Maybe. Lots of countries manufacture 7.62x39 which are generally cheap, and the AKs are not that expensive to maintain and repair.
  7. isuzu


    Jul 3, 2005
    North America

    Were you able to recall the length of the "baby" on the picture? Looks like the barrel protrudes well over the tip of the M203's tube. On the 14.5" "baby" with an M203, the M203 is a tad longer than the tip of the carbine's flash hider. The M203's tube gets dirty after firing just two 30 round mags.
  8. Looks like a 16-incher, thus definitely an Elisco M653P. However, it looked like a rather old specimen, for display only.:)

    You know who got most of the East German hardware? Indonesia. It got most of the East German Navy, as per my Jane's Warships Recognition Guide, and they had a heck of a time "tropicalizing" them, Probably the Russian-made PT-76 amphibious light tank used by the Indonesian Marines (Marinir) also was ex-East German.

    The scream of the MiG-29 and the Su-27 over the airport was most unforgettable. They even got the PAF commanding general to ride in the two-seater; I saw it when it came in for a landing during a weekday. I recall that the pilot was Sukhoi's chief test pilot, Viktor Pougachev, who devised the Pougachev Cobra maneuver, which he also demonstrated before our wondering eyes.:thumbsup:

    A famed aerobatic pilot, Jurgis Kairys, also performed in his Su-26 aerobatic plane. The transports were no less impressive; the Antonov-72 showed how slow it could fly, for a jet, while the Antonov-32 turboprop demonstrated a touch-and-go with only one engine running. The Russkies even got the Mi-17 helicopter to do its own aerobatics.
    And sitting in the distance was an Antonov 124, bigger than a C-5 Galaxy.

    Ah, those were the days... :)
  9. chowchow


    Jan 15, 2007
    I ve taken pics of the airshow way back but left those prints back home. I remember someone mentioned an aircraft crashed during one of the manuevers during the weeklong airshow. The pilot was killed. Dont know if it was true.
    We also walked across the tarmac towards the Antonov 124 Transport. The Russians tech guys were pushing the Mi 17 into its belly. This was in the last day of the show.
    The Airshow was dominated by Russian stuff just right after the breakup of former USSR.
  10. It's true. Right after Jurgis Kairys parked his Sukhoi aerobatic plane, this light plane took off and started to circle, but then disappeared. We noticed something was wrong when the big Oshkosh crash truck near us started and moved out in a hurry. I believe it was some sort of composite plane, supposed to be built here in the Philippines, and the American pilot was killed.

    You're lucky, ChowChow. There are oodles of airshows there in the States, where you can see the latest US hardware, plus the Blue Angels and Thunderbirds, and vintage warbirds.:thumbsup:

    Antonovs are now Ukrainian, not Russian.;)
  11. chowchow


    Jan 15, 2007
    I lived in Abilene, Texas, for quite some time years back where the Dyess AFB is based. Its a strategic bomber base for the B 1 Lancers. Every year they hold a day long airshow for the public (free ) and have all sorts of aircraft and equipment from different services. At the same time they have recruiters to boot to attract prospective applicants.
    Yeah it was fun seeing the airplanes. Long lines of people to see the inside of each aircraft. My first opportunity was on a B 1 in 1994. The cockpit is small and the back is full of hi tech stuff. They said the aircraft's skin is impregnated with gold dust to make it stealthy. Ok, if thats true, dont know for sure.
    One time they have the Canadian AF with their F 18s do aerobatics. The AF Thunderbirds were also invited . B2 flyby. B1 s first nonstop flight around the globe and landed right before the whole crowd (coincide with the airshow) in 1996 or 1997. I think I ve seen enough in 4 years that when its time to hear its showing, i didnt bother to go.
    Nasasawa na rin pagmatagal. But it was great to see them perform esp bringing your wife and kids. The USAF dont do fancy manuevers like the Russians , maybe bec its too risky or pushing the limits. I still marvel though how the Russians perform esp back in 1991 with the SU 27. I like the cobra attack formation.
  12. If you look at there are pictures of Russian aircraft being put through some crazy maneuvers by their pilots. Not only fighters, but also airliners!:shocked: It seems that they have official sanction from their respective manufacturers, as I think no USAF or USN pilot would dare do it without getting busted by Uncle Sam.

    Test pilot Anatoly Kvotchur had to eject from a MiG-29...twice! One was during an airshow; you must have seen the picture of the MiG headed straight down, the pilot ejecting moments before it buried its nose in the ground. Both were mechanical problems; only proves that the Russians make the best ejection seats in the world.

    Besides, the Russkies were trying to sell hardware to us in the 90s, so maybe that was just the Russian way of salesmanship.:supergrin: Pity nothing happened; that Su-25 Frogfoot could have been useful; it's the Russian equivalent of the A-10 Warthog, but without the big 30mm Gatling gun.

    The two Russian-made trucks you saw displayed? They're still here, serving the AFP.I saw the KAMAZ truck going down EDSA some years ago.

    I really envy you; getting in the B-1's cockpit? Something we could only dream of. :)
  13. isuzu


    Jul 3, 2005
    North America
    I agree. The Russians make the best ejection seats in the world (probably to compensate for their aircraft's reliability:supergrin: ). Seriously, the US couldn't copy the feature on their ejection seats that even if the aircraft in in an awkward position when the pilot ejects, it somehow brings the pilot upright before it deploys the chutes.

    Chowchow, I was able to visit the air base in Abilene in 1983. We were with a retired Air Force colonel that hosted us. The guards initially didn't allow us to go inside the base, but he was able to pull some strings and we were eventually allowed access to the base. At that time, there were lots of B-52s stationed there. PX prices were so low and we ended up buying lots of chocolates.
  14. I got a VHS named "Carrier" where they showed one botched takeoff; the catapult got the A-6 off the deck but the engines were not putting out full power; the plane just floated above the water before it rolled to the right and went in; just as it rolled over, the pilot ejected, but he went sideways instead of upwards and ricocheted off a wave; good thing he survived.:)
  15. Glock_19_9x19

    Glock_19_9x19 Toink!

    Feb 24, 2006
    Manila, PH
    I was there too. Was 12yrs old at that time but I'll never forget those Sukhois. A Russian tech even allowed me to view the cockpit of one that was on static display :)

    I wonder why our government didnt purchase any Russian equipment noon..
    Buti pa Vietnam, and Indonesia, may SU-30 na.. Malaysia uses both the MIG-29 and SU-30.

    Tayo, Aermacchi S-211 pa rin.. a basic jet trainer serving as a frontline fighter :upeyes:
  16. Which one was it? I recall that there were two Su-27s, one a single-seat and the other a two-seater. One distinctive feature of the two-seater, apart from the extra seat, was that its air intake was marked with the Russian word for "Danger", which also appeared on the Mi-17's tail boom near the tail rotor. The single seater had none. Perhaps it was meant to warn a student pilot not to get too close.:supergrin:

    You're very lucky that the Russians allowed you to see the cockpit. But then this was just after communism collapsed in Russia; the Russkies I saw looked happier and friendlier than the pictures of those living in Soviet Russia before.:)

    Contrast this with the pitiful state of the PAF's equipment. The PAF aircraft tug used to pull the fighters out of their parking slots for the start of their display, and to park them back again, had a busted power-steering system. Four-wheel steering pa naman. The poor tug driver really had his hands full.:upeyes:
  17. chowchow


    Jan 15, 2007


    Pushing the envelope on what this old dog can do. Ends in disaster.
  18. chowchow


    Jan 15, 2007


    Russian Widens Its Asian Reach With Arms Deals
    September 6, 2007
    HONG KONG, Sept. 5 — On the way to the annual summit meeting of Asia-Pacific leaders in Australia, President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia has scheduled a brief stop in Jakarta on Thursday. High on his agenda: the signing of a $1 billion arms deal that includes supplying Indonesia with two Kilo-class submarines, the first of a small fleet of the vessels.

    This item in Mr. Putin’s itinerary comes on the heels of other deals to sell advanced Su-27 and Su-30 combat fighters to Indonesia, Malaysia and other countries in the region, helping to entrench Russia’s place as the leading arms supplier to Asia.

    After beating a strategic retreat from the region with the breakup of the Soviet Union in 1991, analysts say Russia is making a steady comeback with a more modern agenda for exercising regional military and economic power. The signs that the Russian bear wants to return to its old stomping grounds in East Asia and the Pacific have become increasingly apparent in recent times, analysts say.

    On Aug. 8, in what looked like a rehash of a cold war script, two Russian strategic bombers flew provocatively close to a United States military base at Guam.

    According to the Russian account, United States fighter jets were scrambled to meet the nuclear-capable TU-95 Bear aircraft in a ritual from past decades, with the opposing pilots exchanging smiles. American officials denied the interception took place.

    The Russian regional resurgence is still in its early stages, but it could potentially have a significant impact on the strategic environment in East Asia and the Pacific in the next two decades.

    The arms deals, for instance, are expected to increase. According to the most recent report on the global arms market by the Congressional Research Center, the United States is the world’s largest arms dealer, followed by France. Russia comes in third, but it is already the leading exporter of weapons to Asia and is aggressively promoting new arms sales. It has ambitious long-term plans to restore the strength of its depleted Pacific fleet and Far East forces. And it will become increasingly vital to Asia’s energy security as it directs a greater share of oil and gas exports to the region.

    “The West and the Pacific community must come to terms with the fact that Russia is back,” said Alexey Muraviev, author of several works on Russia’s military presence in the region. “Russia no longer wants to be driven by a Europe-Atlantic agenda alone.”

    Mr. Muraviev, a strategic analyst at Curtin University of Technology in Australia, said among the clearest manifestations of Russia’s aim to once again become a “formidable Pacific player” were the growing use of weapons exports for diplomatic and commercial gain and announced plans to significantly increase the firepower of its own military forces deployed in Asia.

    Some aspects of the Russian role in the military affairs of the region are already well entrenched.

    Between 1998 and 2005, Russia struck agreements for $29.1 billion in arms sales to Asian countries, accounting for about 37 percent of the market, according to a report to the United States Congress on arms transfers to the developing world by the Congressional Research Service. New arms deals signed by the United States during that period accounted for about a quarter of the market.

    The consumption of Russian military hardware has been led by two traditional customers, China and India, as both spend billions of dollars to rapidly expand their military capabilities by buying Russian combat aircraft, warships, submarines and missiles. Russia has been deepening both those relationships by establishing joint-development programs of some weapons and agreeing to license the manufacture of others.

    But it has also been aggressively seeking new clients.

    In Asia, the congressional report said, “Russia’s arms sales efforts, beyond those with China and India, are focused on Southeast Asia.” It said Russia had agreed to flexible payment terms including “counter-trade, offsets, debt-swapping and, in some key cases, to make significant licensed production agreements” to make weapons deals more appealing to relatively poor customers.

    The latest deal with Indonesia for Kilo-class submarines, jet fighters, helicopters and tanks hinges on access to a $1 billion Russian loan to be signed during Mr. Putin’s visit, the first to Indonesia by a Russian leader since the collapse of the Soviet Union.

    Mr. Putin, who will travel on to the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation forum meeting in Sydney, Australia, this weekend, will be discussing several economic agreements with Indonesia, including a joint aluminum smelting project.

    Russia has also expressed interest in building a joint satellite launching facility on the eastern Indonesian island of Biak.

    But the spearhead for Russia’s engagement across the region has so far been weapons exports. According to the United Nations conventional arms register, Russia has in recent years exported advanced fighter aircraft, attack helicopters, missiles, tanks and artillery to countries including Malaysia, Indonesia, Vietnam, Myanmar, Bangladesh, Laos and South Korea, usually on terms favorable to the buyers.

    Payment terms aside, billion-dollar foreign contracts have helped sustain the cash-strapped Russian defense industry during times when domestic purchases of new hardware have been low.

    Arms deals can also help Russia rebuild diplomatic relationships and gain leverage in the region. Indonesia, which was cut off from access to United States military equipment and vital parts for several years because of Washington’s objection to its human rights record, knows how effective arms sales can be as a diplomatic tool. The United States has since restored military ties to reward Indonesia for its cooperation in efforts against terrorism.

    “The Russians are not indiscriminately selling arms,” Mr. Muraviev said. “Russia has pursued a policy driven by strategic design. If it creates a strong client base, that can later be transformed into a larger relationship.”

    Some arms sales have put Russia at loggerheads with the United States and its regional allies. In 2005, Russia made a $700 million agreement with Iran for a surface-to-air defense system. For several years from the mid-1990s, Russia had an agreement with the United States not to sell weapons to Iran.

    Similarly, Russia’s sale of the capable Kilo-class submarines to Indonesia might not be a welcome move for some of its neighbors.

    Indonesia straddles two of the world’s most important waterways, the Malacca and Sunda Straits, with 75 percent of northeast Asia’s oil imports passing through the Strait of Malacca. The sale of the Kilo-class submarines would provide Indonesia with a significant new military capacity in these sea lanes. Currently, Indonesia has two submarines that, because of technical problems, have at times been unable to submerge.

    Russia’s agenda to increase its regional influence goes well beyond the role of arms dealer. It has also announced ambitious plans to restore the might of its Pacific fleet and Far East forces, which declined sharply after the collapse of the Soviet Union.

    The Russian military plans to deploy a new detachment of upgraded Su-27 fighter aircraft and missiles to its Far East, starting next year.

    It will also upgrade a submarine base on the Kamchatka Peninsula ahead of the launch of a new class of nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarine in 2010.

    In mid-July, Vladimir Masorin, the commander in chief of the Russian Navy, told the Russian news media of plans to build six aircraft carriers, with three to be based in refurbished Pacific naval ports.

    Still, the ambition of restoring Russian military power in East Asia and the Pacific would be slow and expensive to realize. The aircraft carrier program would require a huge commitment involving the deployment of escort ships and a huge logistics base. Russia, which had two aircraft carriers based at Pacific ports during the Soviet era, now has only one carrier in its entire navy. Until recently, this ship spent two years in port because of a lack of funds to go to sea.

    Admiral Masorin predicted the first new aircraft carrier could be in service by 2015, but the whole carrier program would take 20 to 30 years, the Russian newspaper Krasnaya Zvezda reported on July 10.

    Peter Rutland, a specialist in Russia and its relations with Asia at Wesleyan University in Connecticut, said the Russian military would have to overcome numerous major hurdles, including a dire shortage of skilled manpower, if it wanted to reassert military power in the region.

    “It’s in a very sorry state,” said Mr. Rutland of the Russian military.

    “They just allowed the whole infrastructure to degrade.”

    Mr. Rutland argued that Russian energy supplies hold the real key to its regional ambitions. He estimates that a much-delayed export pipeline for Siberian oil, together with projects on Sakhalin Island, would lift the proportion of Russian oil that it exported to Asia to 30 percent by 2020 from the current 3 percent.

    That would be a boon to the energy security of Asian countries that presently rely on the Middle East for three-quarters of its oil supplies, transported along maritime routes that could be choked off in a conflict.

    It would also significantly increase Russia’s influence in the area.

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  19. Horrible.:shocked: But then the pilot should have known better than to fling around a plane that's older than he is...:sad:
  20. chowchow


    Jan 15, 2007
    Sobrang pang pasikat yata yung pilot. It cost him his life and rest of his crew. Stupidity talaga.