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VW anti-gun

Discussion in 'The Okie Corral' started by camelotkid, Jan 20, 2013.

  1. shadow_dog

    shadow_dog Hilljack

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    GD, I have never seen such a bickering and arguing people in all my life as what I see here. Instead of telling one another not to come over and so much outrage, what about a group hug? I think a group hug and some warm milk, cookies and chicken noodle soup might do you all some good. Hell, forget that, what about a get together over a few cold ones? If a "beer summit" is good enough that guy, it should be good enough for GNG.

    Anyway, as bad as I hate to admit it, the Co does set the rules. Could be like my employer-no guns, ammo, primers (yes primers) and pocket knives on property. We all had to sign papers to the affect. Till I get a much better job or retire, I will abide by the rules. One way I look at it is they have paid me thus far to allow me to maintain my lifestyle and buy as many weapons as I want in my personal life.
     
  2. Restless28

    Restless28

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    No argument there.
     

  3. Atlas

    Atlas transmogrifier

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    Wow..
    I've ripped briefly through the discussion that ensued since this morning.

    I am as much a 2nd amendment advocate as anyone.
    What we are discussing here though is an agreement you make voluntarily with an employer.
    They tell you up front when you are negotiating for employment "we don't allow firearms on our property, including the parking lot".

    Then they give you the opportunity to agree to abide by that policy or refuse to be their employee.

    I don't care for that policy nor the attitude behind it, but it's their billion-dollar investment.
    VW spent $1,000,000,000 to build that facility.
    Managing any business of that scope and scale is damn complicated.
    Companies like VW do what they feel they must to manage their risks and maximize their profits. It's what they do, their reason for existence.

    No one is forced to work there, they agree with VW on the terms of that employment.


    Again, I'm not defending or trying to justify it, but then I'm not an employer.


    Times are tough and people need jobs?
    How is that VW's problem?



    About my comment that "insurance companies run this country"..
    I did not say that an insurance company dictates the specific policy to forbid guns on company property (though they may for all I know)..
    I was only commenting on the average/typical corporate attitude regarding anything that someone in management (the employer or the insurance company's management) may deem to be a risk of liability.


    About 10 years ago I did an automation design project at the Mercedes facility in Alabama.

    The day before I arrived someone had a shotgun in their truck, with the deal to trade or sell to another employee. When the guy brought the shotgun out of his truck he had a negligent discharge, putting holes in the side of someone's car.

    Does that mean no one should be allowed to have firearms in their car on Mercedes' property? Of course not, but Mercedes' management doesn't see it that way.
    (there was an existing policy against guns in the parking lot at that time)
    You can be assured that this was reported to Mercedes' insurance company, and you can be damn sure that the insurance company had a sit-down meeting with Mercedes' management regarding enforcement of that policy.

    Their property, their rules.

    I was told by a Mercedes employee, but don't know/wasn't there to see it that they had gun-sniffing dogs walked through the parking lot from time to time.
    Knowing Mercedes security as I do (or did at the time) I can easily believe it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2013
  4. Flying-Dutchman

    Flying-Dutchman

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    If the company does not charge you to park in their lot you are ahead of the game. Yep, some companies are that cheap.

    These no gun on company property rules are probably decades old; nothing new here.

    You can always park on the street and walk.

    Or like doctors that CCW at work in some urban hospitals against the rules due to the clientele.

    You make a risk/reward calculation and take your chances.
     
  5. RGbiker

    RGbiker

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    Part of the problem exist with state politicians who fall over each other offering low tax rate/incentives to major companies wish to build in that state.

    Rail links and highway improvements, at taxpayer expense, built to satisfy the company request.

    Building goes up, no guns in parking lot sign is posted and some poor unarmed schumck leaving second shift worries if he'll get home in one piece.

    10 years ago, as a supervisor, I had to discipline a coworker who was found with a .45 in his car. He car pooled from Philadelphia and another coworker riding along was a drug user that got sniffed out by our drug dog. car was then searched and gun found.

    Gun owner lived in a bad section of Philly and was robbed twice coming home from second shift work. He had both police reports to prove this. He also had a hard to obtain Philadelphia LTC permit.

    Our Code of Ethics clearly specified that no personal firearms were allowed on state property.

    I couldn't support firing this man, therefore I recommended a formal counseling for the infraction of having a personal weapon on Institution property.

    I don't know how he protected himself when going home thereafter and I didn't ask.
     
  6. HollowHead

    HollowHead Firm member

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    Did or did not the employee know of the policy beforehand? HH
     
  7. cyphertext

    cyphertext

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    Not in Texas...
     
  8. cyphertext

    cyphertext

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    Difference is that the right to defend oneself is protected here in Texas. The right to have a cocktail...not so much.
     
  9. RGbiker

    RGbiker

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    Each and every worker received and signed for a copy of Pennsylvania Depart of Corrections Code of Ethics.

    So, yes. He knew.

    But how do you justify firing a good worker and family man simply because he wanted to protect himself while driving home into a bad neighborhood.
     
  10. HollowHead

    HollowHead Firm member

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    Are you saying the XXIst Amendment does not apply in Texas? HH
     
  11. HexHead

    HexHead

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    See, governments tell businesses what they can or can't do all the time.
     
  12. cyphertext

    cyphertext

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    Correct me if I am wrong, but prohibition addressed the manufacture, sale, and distribution of alcohol, not merely possession.
     
  13. shadow_dog

    shadow_dog Hilljack

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    FWIW, I have heard 2 different attorneys on talk shows about this very issue, They have both said to do not consent to a search of your vehicle by an employer. Then take it from there.
     
  14. Atlas

    Atlas transmogrifier

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    Government can make laws requiring a corporation to do anything.

    Incorporation is a government privilege.
     
  15. redbaron007

    redbaron007 Some Dude Lifetime Member

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    I don't disagree with you. But on the other hand, the company is now dictating how you have to be off their property, to and from work. This is where I get the rub. Because of their policy on the property, it prohibits me off their property. I admit I don't have the answer.


    I apologize if I seemed rather harsh in my earlier comments about this. Your comment was not out of line; however, it is made by many frequently here and other forums. It is generally false (as with anything, there are exceptions; however, I have never seen any.). Having knowledge of these commercial insurance contracts, there is no provision/exclusion for firearms on the premises. Again, it is a scapegoat for a business/organization to use to shift the blame onto someone else.


    Regarding the underlined, I doubt it was reported to their carrier. These organizations, especially multi-billion ones, generally have some level of self-insurance; for this size it wouldn't be surprising to see a minimum of $1 million to $10 million of self-insurance. Subsequently, there was no convo between the insurance co and Mercedes. However, did leadership within Mercedes have a convo with HR and erected/further develop a plan to help prevent this in the future.....oh, I wouldn't doubt it in the least. Did the corporate legal beagles discuss it for liability reasons, probably.

    My whole deal with this subject is when does someone else rights over-ride mine? In this case, I voluntarily sign up with VW, does that mean I give up my rights to carry to/from work? As of right now, in some states, yep. :crying:

    :wavey:

    red
     
  16. fnfalman

    fnfalman Chicks Dig It

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    Does Texas have a law that allows for gun owners to pack on private properties like in Florida?
     
  17. fnfalman

    fnfalman Chicks Dig It

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    The employer is not going to search your vehicle without consent, but then at the same time, they will ask for you to leave the premises. If you don't leave then that's trespassing.
     
  18. Atlas

    Atlas transmogrifier

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    Some businesses have the policy that your vehicle is subject to search by your voluntary consent any time its on their property.
    Refusal is considered reason for termination of employment.

    Again, not something that makes me happy...
    But it's the policy you agree to.

    I worked last summer on a project for a defense contractor for 6 months. They are in a state with "shall issue" CCW laws.
    Their policy is no firearms on our property including the parking lot, and vehicles are subject to search on demand.
    (the search on demand policy is not specific to firearms... they do high-security work for the Navy and other military branches)

    And they are located in a ghetto-ish high-crime area.
    The campus, including the parking lot is in a secured fence with security guards, FWIW.

    This week they've invited me to return for another project for 6 months or so.
    I didn't hesitate to accept. They're great people to work with, they pay very well, and my last project with them was very successful.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2013
  19. fnfalman

    fnfalman Chicks Dig It

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    Yep. Nobody puts a gun to your head and make you work for these companies.

    It's very simple: unless the company's vehicle search policy or contents of vehicle is in contrary to state/local laws, you can't do squat about it except whine or find employment elsewhere.

    One of these days, people will get in their heads that companies aren't in the business to support the Second Amendment. Or the First Amendment. Or any other amendments. They're in the business of making money.
     
  20. HollowHead

    HollowHead Firm member

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    Over and out. HH