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Discussion in '10mm Reloading Forum' started by kestrou, Dec 2, 2003.
Great report Robert! Thanks!
Thanks for the info Robert.
I'm going to keep my G20 completely stock (with the exeption of the 3,5 lbs connector I put in it) as I'm not going to shoot the really hot loads. Mostly 180 grain bullets at +/- 1100 fps (which falls between the .40S&W and the true 10mm loads) and some real 10mm loads once in a while: 170 grain TMJ from Fiocchi at 1250 - 1300 fps. Problem is that the bullet selection in .40 FMJ is quite poor here in Belgium and Holland. The only one I found is the Fiocchi 170 grain TMJ. Hollow points are not allowed in my country so most .40 jacketed bullets are out of the picture.
I thought of buying an IGB barrel so I can shoot lead (which is a lot cheaper), but the cost of the barrel is significant (prices are not at all like in the US, don't know how it is in Slovenia) and here in Belgium you need a seperate license just for the barrel, which costs you an extra 90.
But if I can shoot some 170 grain bullets at 1250 - 1300 fps I'm happy. For some serieus hot loads I use my Super Redhawk: 300 grain bullets at 1300 fps.
I get bullets mostly from Germany, no problem to send them via post within European Union. Look at eGun.de, there are some retailers with good offer of different 10mm bullets. The last shipments of brass and bullets were from www.grauwolf.net (Germany) and www.shooting-supplies.eu (Luxemburg) both are recommended sellers IMO.
A retailer Artek from Slovenia where I buy bullets too says he buys mostly from:
An IGB full supported barrel is not only because of full power loads, it significantly saves your brass as well. I paid for mine 240€ plus 30€ for extra barrel license, but I don't regret a single cent for it - highly recommended.
Anyway, if you are good with .44 magnum Redhawk (I'm not) you don't have to be afraid of boars or bears in woods.
1€ = 1.37$ at this moment (info for our US 10mm friends)
Thanks for the info Robert. A friend of mine has planned to drive to Luxembourg in a few weeks and will bring me 1000 bullets of Fiocchi TMJ 170 grains, those will do well with the 1250 up to 1300 fps loads I plan to shoot on occasion.
However, my target load for now is the 180 grain Berry plated bullet with 9,5 grains of Vihtavuori N105. 9,7 grains works fine also, but at 10 grains accuracy starts to fade. I have reloaded my Starline cases for the 10th time now and they are all looking good. Of course, 9,5 grains of VV N105 is more like a .40S&W +P load. I don't know the exact velocity, but cases fly about 8 feet, so it is basically an "in between" load.
Haven't seen any bears here in the Belgian woods, guess someone with a 10mm beat me to it
With 10gr N105 and Winchester JHP 180gr I reached 1128fps in G20 stock barrel. Those plated Berry's bullets have probably a bit less friction so I guess you are getting approx. 50fps more. With good FMJ 170gr bullets you should be accurate even at 1300 fps.
If you plan to shoot real power 10mm loads I recommend the same 3-spring recoil system as mine is: DPM. Recoil will be significantly more controllable and you will get better accuracy as well.
Anyway, at 170gr/1300fps your brass will suffer in G20 stock barrel, smileys and bulging are about to appear. Be careful and don't reuse such tortured brass again. Brass is still cheaper than fingers
Those 170 grain FMJ bullets at 1300 fps will be made with Accurate n°9 powder. Max load is 15 grains for the 170 grain bullet and I plan to work up from 10% less like the manual indicates, so starting at 13,5 grains.
I already tried AA9 powder with my 180 grain plated bullets and it gives acceptable performance with the hotter loads (all rounds in the black of a standard pistol target), but for really good accuracy I need those FMJ bullets. Max load with AA9 and a 180 grain bullet is 13,5 grains and at 13 grains I got no pressure signs, cases did fly about 15 feet though. I don't expect pressure signs with AA9 as this is a very slow burning powder. Maybe if you hotrod it with above max loads, but when you stay within the data given in the manual you should not expect Glock smilies or bulged cases with a stock G20 as far as I see it.
Thanks for the tip of the aftermarket recoil rod, but for now I'm sticking with the stock one. It works well, and I will mostly shoot 180 grain plated bullets at +/- 1100 fps and 170 grain FMJ at +/- 1250 fps.
I have been playing around with my G20 a lot lately and am quite pleased with my results with the VV N105 powder. Only downside on this powder is that the velocities Vihta claims to get in their manual are way over exaggerated.
Vihtavuori doesn't show any data for the 170 grain Fiocchi TMJ bullets I bought, so I started at their max load for a 180 grain bullet (knowing a 10mm max load from their manual is not even close to max) and worked my way up. The 170 grain bullet with 10,5 grain of N105 was my starting load and this one didn't felt too hot. So I moved to 11,0 grain of N105 and this load seems to be a good one. Cases fly pretty far with my stock 17lbs recoil spring (easily up to 15 ft), but don't show any signs of overpressure. Accurcay is very good too, at 50 meters (55 yards) I shot 84/100 yesterday on a standard olympic pistol target, I've seen guys doing a lot worse with a rifle at this distance I'm guessing this load will do about 1250 fps, but I could be off by 50 fps as I have no chrono and none of my shooting buddies have one either. COAL is 1,255 and I use a Magtech LP primer in my Starline cases.
I also bought the last batch of Sierra 190 FPJ Tournament Master bullets my gunshop had in stock. I got to buy them at a good price I think: 16,50 for 100 bullets, bought all 3000 of them Sierra stopped making those 190 grain bullets in 2009 and since a good quality FMJ .40 bullet in Belgium is a hard thing to find I decided to buy all of them, sort of like an investment for the future Sierra now only makes hollow point bullets in .40 and in Belgium we cannot buy these in handgun ammo (one of the very few things we are not allowed to buy).
I use these 190 grain Sierra bullets with 10 grain of N105 and this feels like a true 10mm load. I cannot chrono these loads, but I guess I get something around 1150 fps. These are very solid bullets, well construced, with good accuracy. If I were living in a bear-populated region I would use these bullets for protection without a doubt as penetration will be superb.
Well, I recommend to stop guessing about your loads - here's a good chrono at affordable price, seller would send within EU, no problem:
I highly recommend this seller, I have already bought 10mm bullets and brass from him and within 2 weeks he will get 10mm Starline brass again.
It's very good to have chrono, especially if you are 10mm loader.
At least you know if your loads are still too weak for a bear or have already reached desired velocity
Thanks for the link. You're right, I really should buy a chrono, especially since I also reload .44 mag, .45 ACP and .45/70.
My birthday is next month, and since I got enough ammo for now I may end up buying a chrono.
I note in your posting of 10mm VV105 load you were at -1C to -4C. I am loading some 180 Gr XTP bullets today with VV105 and some Ramshot True Blue.
I would be very interested in hearing the crono numbers at 20c vs 0c. I went out a rummaged through some old boxes and found some 350 primers. (Probably from my 44Mag 20 years ago.).
I have a Ohler 43 Cronograph with a printer, So should be easy to just go out and set it up and put some rounds through it, (Hopefully without the dreaded squeeze the little finger causing a barrel dip, and back to the shop, (again)). Yes it has happened to me. Hate it when I do that.
I have a G20 with a 5" LW barrel, and a Kimber 10MM. (Plus a G29 with external ports). I also have the 5" slide for the G20 but don't like it too much.
I usually shoot the DT 135 Gr Nossler @ 1600 fps for SD load, but want to try and load some other hot loads just to practice and not spend $1.00/shot.
Vihtavuori N105 is relatively slow burning in class of handgun powders but I wouldn't use LP Magnum primers with it in summer. If you will anyway, drop down starting load for at least 10% and carefully observe for overpressure signs.
And it burns quite better in summer, I measured 50 - 80 fps higher speeds (depending on load and bullet weight) on warm days although ammo wasn't exposed to direct sunlight or left in car for hours. Too bad I didn't write down all those data.
Stay safe and take care. And don't forget to use good ballistic glasses and kevlar/spectra gloves. It's much easier &cheaper to buy a new gun than new fingers.
I am planning to chrono some of my 10mm pet loads this summer just to compare with winter numbers, will post it here.
I found only this data on my ammo box:
Winchester 180gr JHP
VV N105 12,2gr
CCI 300 LP
1286 fps 2010/Oct 12 @ 12°C / 54°F (stock barrel)
1303 fps 2011/Jun ? @ 25°C / 77°F (stock barrel)
1331 fps 2011/Jun ? @ 25°C / 77°F (custom IGB barrel)
so if I had shot both times with the same barrel (it was stock b. I did so) it would be approx. 20 fps difference, but it's also only 13°C /23°F difference in temperature.
It's my own ammo from the same batch.
On that day (2010/Oct 12 ) I also compared speed of Winchester JHP and Hornady XTP bullets, both 180gr:
Load: N105 12,4gr w. CCI 300
Winchester JHP: 1291 fps
Hornady XTP: 1282 fps
Load: N105 12,6gr w. CCI 300
Winchester JHP: 1300 fps
Hornady XTP: 1297 fps
each is the average of 3 rounds from my Glock 20, stock barrel.
I hope it helps somehow.
Thanks Robert for the quick reply.
I have loaded 30 rounds with CCI 350 primers..
11.5 Gr VV 105
11.7 Gr VV 105
12.0 Gr VV 105
All with XTP 180 Gr bullets.
(I have 50 rounds already primed with CCI 300 primers, and sounds like I should duplicate the above loading in that brass as well, maybe move above 12.0 Gr)
For some reason with these dies, I am having some problem in controlling COL. I started at 1.257 but some are at as much as 1.270? I am thinking about re-positioning the seating/crimp die to the press bottoms out, (The carbide RCBS die set is for 40sw and 10mm. )
Or I do have a Lee crimp die, and just back it out so I get an exact COL and crimp it.
I hope to get to the range soon, and chronograph these loads. I want to find a load I like, then I have 500 rounds of new brass I can load. Already have plenty of VV105 powder, and do want to try some True Blue powder, but I might get some 135 Gr Nossler bullets for that project.
My favorite carry load is DT 135 Gr Nosslers at 1600 FPS!
I'm sure you would exceed 1300fps mark with 5" LW barrel / 12gr N105 / magnum primers / warm summer day, but I'm not sure it's still safe. Be sure your barrel is shiny clean before you start to chrono each of this 10 round batch. And maybe you should rise with max 0.2gr steps, not 0.3gr, but it's your gun and the rest behind it as well.
One of CCI350's advantage over CCI300's is less powder and less compression so the hollow point remains ok. Anyway, 12gr N105 and 180gr XTP makes some powder compression at 1.260 OAL but N105 takes it good.
Please let us know about results as soon as you can.
Here's chrono report for 180gr XTP's / Vihtavuori 3N38 / CCI 300 LP / Glock 20 / IGB 4.6 barrel w. full supported chamber. Temp. was 21°C ( 70°F).
load (grains) average (fps)
Accuracy good (see target at 27 yrds bellow). Primers still OK, not flattened at all. Case Head Expansion at max. 0.431 but due to tight and full supported chamber of IGB barrel this could not be relevant. I think 3N38/180gr combination has still some way to go so a day after loaded another batch of 12.2 to 12.6 gr.
Data for 12.2 – 12.6 loads are gonna follow within few days after next trip to the range.
Similar batch with Rex Magnum powder was done as well, it could be seen in Rex Powders sticky thread.
And here are some that day's photos:
After chrono had some more fun, this is my training stage "Wild Boar Pack"
EDIT: previously I mixed up data of Rex Magnum and 3N38 powder. Now I have corrected 3N38 numbers :embarassed: In fact, 3N38 gave a bit less than Rex Magnum at the same weight load. See my today's post at Rex powders sticky.
I will probably reach 1300 mark with next batch 12.2 - 12.6 of 3N38....ammo was loaded yesterday, maybe this weekend will find time to go to the range.
Robert, thanks for the report/data! I like your "Wild Boar Pack" training stage!
It really took a while but I was on my vacation. I was planning to put data on GT in the meantime but forgot data at home :embarassed:
However, here are data for 3 steps up w. 3N38:
12.2...................1338 ES 37.57 SD 16.67
12.4...................1353 ES 6.51 SD 3.60
12.6...................1358 ES 6.63 SD 3.00
yes, I noticed a great gap between 12.0 and 12.2 but....
Very good velocities. 1.260"?
Had to make them a bit longer than usual due to small space left for bullet.
primers: CCI 300 LP, OAL 1.260 - 1.264
brass: virgin new Starline
bullets 155gr Speer GD and Hornady XTP
grains ~fps (average)
12,4 ~1297 ~1310
12,7 ~1361 ~1350
13,0 ~1370 ~1367
13,3 ~1404 ~1409
13,5 ~1436 ~1443
13,7 ~1458 ~1457
13,9 ~1464 ~1464
14,1 ~1471 ~1485
14,3 ~1501 ~1496
Conditions and equipment:
- Glock 20 w. IGB full supported barrel 4.6" and DPM 3-spring system
- temp. 8°C (46°F)
- each string 3 shots only
- primers flattened last 4 strings, but nothing horrible yet :embarassed:
All loads very accurate, although at 1400fps started to be very snappy.
Warning: don't copycat these loads but if you do, buy the same barrel and use the best protection glasses and gloves. Anyway, most of these loads are over book max so not recommended.