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Vihta Vuori Powder Data

Discussion in '10mm Reloading Forum' started by kestrou, Dec 2, 2003.

  1. Today I reloaded the same stuff again (Winchester JHP 180gr & VV N105 from 11,2gr to 12,2gr).
    I hope I will succeed to go to the range this week and chrono them. This time I will take more care about Chrony, because I'm almost sure that last time I didn't extend it enough - to the end, so distance between screens was too short.

    "old wanderer": I changed a firing pin spring from standard to "Red - 28 Newton"
    http://www.glock.com/english/options_firingpinspring.htm
    so firing pin holes are a bit deeper.
    Powder was weighed on Dillon electronic scale, I load on Dillon XL650.
    Yes, I noticed some case bulging at unsupported area but I use my *-----* brass only once for such hot loads. After this "torture" it will be still ok for mild target loads.
    3 days ago I received another package of 10mm brass from Luxemburg, I paid 253 EUR for 1k. (1EUR = 1.4USD$) Too bad that Starline does not send it anymore outside US directly to customers.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2010
  2. 3 days ago I have loaded another batch of Win JHP 180gr and VV N105 11,2gr-12,2gr. Yesterday I made also 12,4 - 12,8gr and today's sunny afternoon I had a lot of 10mm pleasure on range:

    load (grains) average (fps)
    11,2..............1223
    11,4..............1238
    11,6..............1245
    11,8..............1255
    12,0..............1265
    12,2..............1286
    12,4..............1291
    12,6..............1300
    12,8..............1302

    - Glock 20 stock barrel
    - recoil spring: DPM MS Glock20 3-spring system - http://www.dpmsystems.com/en/products/
    - primers: CCI 300 LP
    - powder: VV N105
    - bullets: Winchester JHP 180gr
    - brass: Starline (new) and Winchester (new)
    - COAL: 1.260 - 1.263
    - temperature: 54 ºF (12ºC)

    I noticed some case bulging at unsupported area but no glock smileys yet. Almost all brass (except 2) could be reused for some mild target loads.
    Anyway if I want to go further with some hotter loads I have to wait for IGB full supported barrel.
    Pictures of brass to be followed in this same post, probably tomorrow.
     

    Last edited: Jul 6, 2011

  3. Finally I took a photo of 24 cases used, sorry for such delay. 3 cases are damaged at the edge, I don't know what happened nor why. Details about these 3 cases will be posted separately.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Jul 6, 2011
  4. Last few weeks I was working on my 10mm hunting load or better said my SD load for/when stirring out an angry wounded wild boar from bushes.
    This week new full supported IGB barrel has finally arrived and today I was testing my 200gr babies:

    Equipment/conditions:
    - Glock 20
    - IGB custom barrel 4.6" with full supported chamber
    - primers: CCI LP 300
    - recoil spring: DPM MS 3-spring system for Glock 20/21
    - powder: Vihtavuori N105
    - bullets: Hornady XTP 200gr
    - brass: Winchester (new)
    - OAL: 1.260 to 1.275 (depending on load)
    - temperature: 52 oF (11 oC)
    - 1 string: 3 shots only
    - distance from 1st Chrony screen: 3m (approx. 10 feet)
    - I cleaned barrel quickly with brass-brush and hard-plastic brush after every third string (after 9 shots)


    load (grains)~~~~~average (fps)
    9,6.................1072
    10,0.................1108
    10,3.................1113
    10,6.................1147
    10,8.................1153
    11,0.................1172
    11,2.................1191
    11,4.................1199
    11,6.................1212
    11,8.................1220
    12,0.................1232
    12,2.................1256
    12,4.................1255 ??? - strange but true
    12,6.................1264
    12,8.................1269 2 primers flat
    13,0.................1284 all 3 primers flat
    13,2.................1301 2 primers flat, 1 primer fell out!

    I made only 3 rounds for 1 string because these bullets are expensive in Europe (0.27€ = 0,37$) and I dare to use only new brass (0,25€ = 0,35$) for such hot mule-like kicking loads.
    Beside good military glasses for eye protection I was wearing also kevlar-leather gloves, not for just in case of KB, my G20 was hard-kicker this time, my wrist was thankful for that.
    N105 powder is not much friendly to compress, more likely hollows become damaged a bit if I try to seat bullets some deeper.
    But anyway I found N105 to be a great powder for pushing heavy 200 grainers. Maybe some day I will try with CCI 350 Magnum primers, starting 1 or 1.5 grains lower.
    I noticed that rounds with AOL 1.275 or more stuck in the mag and decided to make 12,4gr rounds with AOL 1.272. This length makes no stucking in mag and at 1255 fps primers were still acceptable.

    WARNING: Don't try such hot loads in Glock stock unsupported barrel and of course, don't even try to shoot them on hot summer day.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2010
  5. g20addicted

    g20addicted

    87
    0
    Aug 1, 2010
    ITALY

    What is the strenght (lbs) of the DPM spring you used? 19, 20, 22 lbs??

    Have you tried the same loads with the Glock 20 stock 17lbs spring?

    thanks!
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2010
  6. It is not a single spring on guide rod, it's a 3-spring kit combined with magnets inside. I can't find explicit data of it's strength, but here's some description and also Jeff Quinn's revision:
    http://www.gunblast.com/DPM.htm
    http://www.dpmsystems.com/en/home/

    I decided to switch from factory recoil spring when I found my G20 to be uncontrolable with loads quite weaker than these 200-grainers. The difference was significant, really as advertised. Reduced recoil, faster sighting back on target and cases started flying "only" 5 yards away, not 15 like before.
    I remember I had 180gr/1200 fps ammo that day and after that I had never put back stock recoil spring in my G20 neither I will.

    Only switching to be done is changing main spring in DPM: silver for heavy bullets (180 - 200gr) and gold (yellow) for fast ammo (1400 fps) with light bullets (155gr). If I try to shoot 155gr/1400fps with silver main spring sometimes spent case is smashed or stucked at the edge of frame and destroyed. Well, maybe if I would shorten it a few it would be good for .40SW but IMO I will never buy that caliber.

    Although meant in first place for hot ammo this DPM works OK also with weak factory Remington 180gr/1060fps FMJ's.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2010
  7. g20addicted

    g20addicted

    87
    0
    Aug 1, 2010
    ITALY

    In the case you are using a 180/200gr bullet running at more than 1350 fps (180gr) or 1200 fps (200gr), so a combination of "Heavy and Fast", like in your tests, you used the silver or yellow?
     
  8. Silver (stronger) spring for heavy bullets 180gr and up. The yellow one seems to be recommendable only for lighter 155 bullets because when I switched from silver to yellow 155gr worked fine, no damaged/stucked cases anymore.
    I have also 165gr/1411fps loads w. Speer Gold Dot, those functioned fine with silver spring so far. This week I'm planing to go to my beloved place (guess where is it :supergrin:) and compare silver vs. yellow spring with 165gr/1411 loads.
    I also plan to chrono 155gr Speer GDHP/13.0-13.6gr Rex Magnum loads and compare them with same bullet/VV 3N38 loads.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2010
  9. g20addicted

    g20addicted

    87
    0
    Aug 1, 2010
    ITALY
    Question to all of you who have tried: :)

    1) Using 180gr plated bullets and N105 powder, what is the "maximum safest" load? I mean, a load that, even if it may exceed the official limits shown in the VV tables, can still make you go on safely with one brass for 5-6 times?
    I was thinking about 10,7 grains of N105 and 180gr... is it OK? I know that the limit is 9,9 in the latest tables, and it used to be 10,5 in the tables of some year ago... but since I saw that some of you went up to 12 grs, I thought that 10,7 would be fair enough safe.

    2) Considering normal loads of N105 with a 180gr bullet (that means something around 9,5 - 10 grains of powder), can I still safely use the stock glock plastic spring? Or is it too weak and the slide will cycle super-fast (dangerously fast)? Considering that, theoretically, all the official VV data has been done with stock guns, it should be ok, but I'd like to hear from you.

    Thanks!
     
  10. My data:

    VV N105, Winchester JHP 180gr, Glock stock barrel

    10,0 gr~~~~~~~~1128fps
    10,2 gr~~~~~~~~1144fps
    10,4 gr~~~~~~~~1189fps
    10,6 gr~~~~~~~~1193fps
    10,8 gr~~~~~~~~1213fps
    11,0 gr~~~~~~~~1227fps

    IMO you go safe with 10,7gr n105 and 180gr plated bullet, your brass will last some cycles and you will still feel like shooting 10mm auto, not some watered down factory stuff e.g. Remington UMC 180 FMJ / 1050 fps (my chrono data).
    Just make it sure your barrel is clean when starting and DON'T mess with casted bullets on the same day at the range. When I shoot casted bullets I clean my IGB barrel after every 2 or 3 mags w. softer brass brush and then w. stock plastic brush (the one you get with new Glock)

    I don't recommend stock spring for these loads, go buy something little stronger w. steel rod. Your gun will be thankful and your wrist too. Not to mention controllability and accuracy.
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2010
  11. g20addicted

    g20addicted

    87
    0
    Aug 1, 2010
    ITALY
    Thank you again!

    Is there any special consideration/attention to be done if I want to use CCI350 primers? Do I need to lower the powder charge?

    thanks!
     
  12. I don't have any experience with magnum primers yet, but I read many times here on GT that you should start 10% lower than minimum and go up very slowly & observe very carefully every case spent for any sign of overpressure.
    I am planing to try CCI 350 / 180 & 200gr bullets considering these warnings. The last time I was chronoing various bullets & N105/CCI300 I found quite much unburnt powder on the ground around chrono. Looked like some tiny yellow flakes. Maybe w. Magnum primers I could load less powder for same speed and all of it will burn inside the barrel.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2010
  13. Equipment/conditions:
    - Glock 20
    - IGB custom barrel 4.6" with full supported chamber
    - primers: CCI 350 LP Magnum
    - recoil spring: DPM MS 3-spring system for Glock 20/21
    - firing pin spring changed from standard to "Red - 28 Newton"
    http://www.glock.com/english/options...gpinspring.htm
    - powder: Vihtavuori N105
    - bullets: Winchester JHP 180gr
    - brass: Starline (new)
    - OAL: 1.268
    - temperature: 25 oF (-4 oC)
    - 1 string: 3 shots only
    - distance from 1st Chrony screen: 3m (approx. 10 feet)
    - I cleaned barrel quickly with brass-brush and hard-plastic brush after every third string (after 9 shots)

    load (grains)~~~~~average (fps)

    11,4.................1284
    11,7.................1302
    12,0.................1326
    12,2.................1328
    12,4.................1340
    12,6.................1342 primers flattened a bit

    I found out at my previous tests w. CCI 300 primers that quite much of N105 remains unburnt, especially at lower winter temperatures, so tried with magnum primers, starting a bit lower. No overpressure signs until 12,6gr when primers looked flattened. My goal was also lower volume of powder to avoid much compression, so working load will be 12,0 grains. This time some unburnt powder found on chrono and on blanket below, but much less than last time with CCI 300 LP primers.
    IMO magnum primers are useful at low winter temperatures in combination with slow burning powder like N105.

    Warning: Do not try such loads with unsupported barrel or at higher spring/summer temperatures. I always use kevlar gloves and best eye protection glasses as well - find out what military use.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2010
  14. - Glock 20
    - IGB custom barrel 4.6" w. full supported chamber
    - primers: CCI 350 LP Magnum
    - recoil spring: DPM MS 3-spring system for Glock 20/21
    - firing pin spring changed from standard to "Red - 28 Newton"
    http://www.glock.com/english/options...gpinspring.htm
    - powder: Vihtavuori N105
    - bullets: HORNADY XTP 200gr
    - brass: Starline (new)
    - OAL: 1.272
    - temperature: 25 oF (-4 oC)
    - 1 string: 3 shots only
    - distance from 1st Chrony screen: 3m (approx. 10 feet)
    - I cleaned barrel quickly with brass-brush and hard-plastic brush after every second string (after 6 shots)

    load (grains)~~~~~average (fps)

    11,0.................1215
    11,3.................1227
    11,7.................1261
    12,0.................1276 primers flattened a bit
    12,2.................1283 primers flattened
    12,4.................1294 primers flattened

    I found out at my previous tests that quite much of N105 remains unburnt, especialy at lower winter temperatures, so tried with magnum primers, starting a bit lower. Overpressure signs started at 12,0gr - primers flattened a bit. My goal was also lower volume of powder to avoid much compression and bullet hollow squeezing, so working load will be 11,7 or 11,8 grains.

    Warning: Do not try such loads with unsupported barrel or at higher spring/summer temperatures. I always use kevlar gloves and best eye protection glasses as well - find out what military use. I use Revision Sawfly.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2010
  15. - Glock 20
    - IGB custom barrel 4.6" w. full supported chamber
    - primers: CCI 300 Large Pistol
    - recoil spring: DPM MS 3-spring system for Glock 20/21 (yellow main spring)
    - firing pin spring changed from standard to "Red - 28 Newton"
    http://www.glock.com/english/options...gpinspring.htm
    - powder: Vihtavuori N350
    - bullets: Speer GDHP 155gr
    - brass: Starline (new)
    - OAL: 1.262
    - temperature: 25 oF (-4 oC)
    - 1 string: 3 shots only
    - distance from 1st Chrony screen: 3m (approx. 10 feet)
    - I cleaned barrel quickly with brass-brush and hard-plastic brush after fourth string (after 12 shots)

    load (grains)~~~~~average (fps)

    11.0.................1417
    11.2.................1434
    11.4.................1455
    11.6.................1465
    11.8.................1493 primers flattened
    12.0.................1512 primers very flattened, 1 primer fell out

    IMO 11.2 load would be max if I'm gonna make SD loads with these components for winter carry. For hot summer days should drop down to 10.4 (or lower) or use slower powder e.g. 3N38.
     
  16. whenmonkeysfly

    whenmonkeysfly CLM

    355
    0
    Jul 11, 2006
    Florida

    Thanks for the data Robert! I've got a boatload of Vihtavuori N350 and a few thousand Rainer 165 grain TC bullets that I could push to ~1200-1250fps. I use both blue and red flavors of Newton Springs in a number of my Glocks. Really good for those hard CCI-350's.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2010
  17. Well, 165gr/1250fps really aren't some nuclear loads but be careful anyway, cause N350 is pretty fast. Don't try magnum primers with it.
    I found N350 to be great for loading hot 9mm SD rounds 115gr/1330fps and 124gr/1270fps.

    2 weeks ago I combined 165gr Gold Dots w. 3N38 and CCI 350 LP Magnum primers, IMO this is worth to write about:

    load (grains) average (fps)
    12,0..............1344
    12,3..............1355
    12,6..............1361
    12,8..............1385
    13,0..............1426
    13,2..............1449
    13,4..............1462
    13,6..............1478
    13,8..............1486 primers not so great anymore
    14,0..............1503 primers flattened

    Temperature: -4°C (25°F), IGB full supported 4.6" barrel.

    Warning: you already know what :embarassed:

    P.S.: I have read it http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=179485 again and maybe I should really stop to push my luck w. hot 10mm loads. I will buy Ken Waters "Pet Loads" on eBay http://cgi.ebay.com/Pet-Loads-Book-...935?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5641f1e77f but here in Europe you can't buy 10mm high performance factory ammo so how can I compare head expansion w. my loads? :dunno: .... any idea? To buy a motorcycle helmet maybe?
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2011
  18. pistolpete10mm

    pistolpete10mm

    68
    0
    Feb 28, 2011
    Belgium
    First post here. Roberts published data sure is interesting to read.

    I own a G20 just for a little over a month now and have used N340 and N105. The N340 feels a bit weak and is IMO not the powder for a true 10mm.

    So I've done most of my shooting with N105, the magnum powder, and according to the Vihta manual I should get some good velocities, but reading the data on this forum the velocities Vihta claims are quite a bit exaggerated (maybe they do their chrono testing on the moon?).

    Now I use a 180 grain Berry double struck plated bullet with 9,3 grains of N105. Should give me about 1220 fps, but the real world data shows that I don't even get that kind of velocity with the max load of the old Vihta manual listed as 10,5 grains of N105.

    Robert, if you're reading this (and you still got all your fingers to type :supergrin: ), do you know what the 9,3 grain N105 load will give in combination with a 180 grain bullet? I like this load as it is easy on my Starline cases and use my Glock in stock configuration. But obviously I also want some true 10mm velocities (no nuclear loads, just the real 10mm stuff) without ruining my cases after one or two loads. It seems that 10,5 grain of N105 may be the sollution for me: about 1200 fps in the real world and pressure should still be ok for a stock Glock, especially since N105 is a slow burning powder.
     
  19. Yes, all 10 still attached to my palm :rofl: beside that I always wear kevlar or spectra gloves when shooting 10mm, so as long as I do that, Murphy protects me against :upeyes: and of course, I type with 2 fingers only :embarassed:
    You can find my post 1 page back in this thread. N105: 10 -11gr , Winchester JHP 180gr, CCI 300 LP, Glock 20 stock barrel. I reached 1200 fps at approx. 10.7gr at 10°C (50°F).
    Presuming that jacketed bullet has some more friction than softer plated I can say you will touch 1200fps/180gr at approx. 10.4gr .
    Anyway, start at 9.4 and rise with 0.2 gr steps and observe brass after every shot, check for smiley and extreme primer flattening. If it shows up STOP! and go at least 1 step down. That should be max for YOUR gun and YOUR barrel at THIS temperature and with CLEAN barrel.
    Anyway, I strongly recommend to change stock recoil spring, get something stronger e.g. DPM 3-spring system. I am very happy with DPM.
    Few months ago I changed barrel as well and I'm more than happy with IGB barrel with full supported chamber. Not only full case support, it's ballistics is better (less friction) and classic rifling works fine with soft plated bullets or hard cast as well. Anyway I always shoot hard cast b. at last, never switch back to plated or FMJ that day on the range.
    P.S.: Like yours, mine first 10mm rounds were Remington 180gr UMC and I overpaid them as you did, but this is Europe :crying: Now I reload my own pet rounds and I'm trying to get rid of rest UMC's for some decent price but seems that 10mm handguns are very very rare in Slovenia. In Austria you can buy 10mm ammo from Prvi partizan, Serbia - PPU stamp. Don't buy it! It's worthless, it's a :yawn: weak .40SW in 10mm package, it's a shame for factory with not so bad reputation in other calibers.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2011
  20. Equipment/conditions:
    - Glock 20
    - IGB custom barrel 4.6" with full supported chamber
    - primers: CCI 350 LP Magnum
    - recoil spring: DPM MS 3-spring system for Glock 20/21
    - firing pin spring "Red - 28 Newton"
    - powder: Vihtavuori N105
    - bullets: Hornady FMJ 200gr
    - brass: Starline (new)
    - OAL: 1.266
    - temperature: 30 °F (-1 °C)
    - 1 string: 4 shots
    - distance from 1st Chrony screen: 3m (approx. 10 feet)
    - I cleaned barrel quickly with brass-brush and hard-plastic brush after third string (after 12 shots)

    load (grains)~~~~~average (fps)

    11,0.................1216
    11,2.................1218
    11,4.................1225
    11,6.................1242
    11,8.................1264
    12,0.................1289 primers flattened a bit

    IMO the last load w. 12,0gr is safe in this configuration if barrel is clean and temp. is low, speaking of course for MY aftermarket IGB barrel with full supported chamber and considering that after approx. 500 rounds it has less friction or better said, it's a bit broken in.
    My woods carry load against feral boar carrying light body armour will be 11,8gr :embarassed:

    Warning: Do not try such loads with unsupported barrel or at higher spring/summer temperatures.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2011