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Discussion in 'Black Rifle Forum' started by Big Bird, Sep 30, 2012.
Excellent run-down of the course, thanks! I'd call that $150 very well spent.
Good review, thanks for posting.
If they would offer something in PA I would go. It is difficult for me to travel anywhere else right now.
Will they not let you run a 25m zero?
What about if you wanted to go BUIS down?
Why would you pay money and go to a course to learn things and want to do it all your way? That's retarded. Sometimes learning new things is uncomfortable relative to what you did in the past. But if you haven't run your gun all day with the sights up through a couple of dozen cadence drills how do you know that it won't work? At first it was a little awkward. But after a while the sights just disappear because you train your eyes to ignore them and focus on the target.
Go to a course to learn what THEY teach. If it makes sense go home and use it. If it doesn't then at least you know why you don't like it.
I just took a class where we ran a 36 yard zero from the first day.
It worked fine and i'm trying it on my work carbine.
Hold over is a bit less at 15yards and in for head shots hairline is dead on in the eye box.
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Great review and good price on that course!
This is the best attitude to use when going to any class. If you think the instructors methods are crap, then don't go. However, there are very few people in the world who could be qualified to call that on Larry Vickers.
Learn it. Practice it. If it works, keep it. If it doesn't work, stow it away in case you may one day need it.
I think you answered my question in that they are both requirements.
Not requirements but they have their reasons for teaching those techniques. Why would you pay someone to teach you something and then ignore their approach and do it your own way.
When I went to Gunsite and took the pistol course over 20 years ago there were a couple of guys in our course that were big time IPSC shooters--real gamers. Had some attitude and thought they were going to show us all how it was done. For the first few days they really resisted the instruction and insisted on doing things their way and by the third day they began to realize there was a method to the progressive nature of the training and what it was intended to produce at the end of the week. The instructors were clearly frustrated with those students. They found themselves struggling to catch up with the folks who were doing it by the numbers and by the time we got to the Fun House and Donga live fire drills they underperformed relative to the est of the class.
Interesting. If you take the 3 day course from Larry Vicker's himself he will set you up with a 100 yard zero. Least that's what our instructor told us. But every zero method has its drawbacks.
In the Army we all zeroed our guns at 25 yards. And that worked fine for a rifle length barrel shooting 55 grain bullets at 3100 fps. (and actually it wasn't a dead on zero at 25 it was like 1.5" low) But with a carbine with a realistic self defense max range of 200 yards that poses issues with holdover at 100 yards. In the Army we were shooting out to 375 meters or so. You just aren't going to do that in any realistic self defense scenario.
In our course the standard at 50 yards was to be able to make 9 out of 10 "head shots" offhand. Only two guys in the course could do that consistently. I dropped 2 shots almost every drill. Most were not that consistent.
Again, calm yourself, I was just asking. I've never taken a VSM class, but I've also never taken a class where they enforced a specific zero across the board. I wasn't sure if this was part of the "method."
OK... so not a requirement then.
Cool story, bro.
I've always said that you don't need a muzzle brake/compensator to shoot fast and accurate for a 5.56 long gun and others have always disputed me.
Thanks for the affirmation.
I beg to differ. Unless you're a cherry and don't know squat from diddly, you should take everything at face value. I've never taken Vicker's class but I've taken enough classes to see the preferences in techniques from many a well qualified instructors. They all think they're "right". However, I'd prefer to distill what I've learned across the board and pick out the best practices for my own application instead of swallowing the Kool-Aid from one school or another.
That's because these people were trained as gamers then tried to apply the technique to fighting/self-defense which was and is the essence of Gunsite classes.
The fastest shooter of the group by a mile had a Surefire 215A flash hider.
I'm far from an expert with a carbine but Ray Charles can see you don't need a brake to drive a carbine fast. Its not a hard friggin caliber to control. Now stick two guys with some serious skills side by side you might find a brakes gives you a few hundreths of a second advantage. But for us mere mortals I see no practical difference.
But again...I could be wrong about that.
Maybe--maybe not. Personally, I think you owe it to your instructor to try what he's teaching. I didn't say you had to live with it the rest of your life. But give it a shot.
You are spot on about the gamer vs. Gunsite mentality though.
If you use an EOtech optic and zero at 25 then the lower bound of the reticule is your 7 yard POI.
- In the M4/M16/AR with iron sights or modern optics, no matter the zero distance, from contact distance out to roughly 7-10 yards your height over bore is ~2.5" no matter what. Anyone who does not understand this, truly does not understand this platform. This is not shooter dependent either. It is a pure geometry issue with the line of sight and angle of departure of the projectile in relation to the height over bore of the irons or optic. So from contact distance to roughly 10 yards aiming at the middle of the forehead is where you need to be no matter what.
- Vickers Shooting Method instructors are generally good to go. They are not Larry Vickers but teach his shooting ideals. This does not mean that individual VSM instructors will not have their own unique style.
- BUIS should be up or fixed IMO. With enough correct training they are not an issue, but a complete positive in the need arises. Yes I know all of the arguments, but this is still my experience / opinion.
- 50y BZO or 100y zero are the 2 best IMO and the traditional 25m/300m zero is a bit too old school and most former high speed .mil guys will also say the same. Now here is where it gets interesting. Even with a 50 or 100, some will change their POA/POI which is shooter preference whether they go for a true POA/ POI of want to lolipop. No matter what if you are impacting about 1.5" low at 25M your outer zero is more correct load dependent. 1.5" low at 25 would get you more of a 50 meter true zero.
- Muzzle devices and the A2 is a very good standard. Those who think a break or a compensator on this platform is not an advantage in control and speed and I will 100% tell you that they are either #1 in the top 99.9% of shooters or that #2 they are not skilled enough to run this platform at the ragged edge of performance to understand the benefit. I will say 100% without a doubt that other factors such as blast, concussion, disturbance and flash signature are factors for certain users.
- There is almost no 100% across the board and what works for the majority will not necessarily work for everyone.
Of course. I'd definitely give it a whirl to see if there's a merit.
What people don't understand or refuse to acknowledge is that we are not all built the same. My canting my elbow this way a bit may improve my gun handling and control, but it doesn't mean that you have the same degree of flexibility, or the technique even work for you.
This is why I advocate getting specific trainings. Want to compete or shoot competition style? Go to a school that teaches you competition shooting.
Want to learn how to fight? Go to a school that teaches you how to fight.
As far as I'm concerned, the 'twains are so different that I don't even bother trying to mix'em up.
Well said surf. Can't say I disagree with anything you just said.