Use of Deadly Force - When?

Discussion in 'Carry Issues' started by Car 2217, Jan 12, 2013.

  1. Bren

    Bren NRA Life Member

    There you go.

    Not in Texas (or Kentucky, or Florida, etc.).

    Without going into a Texas law research project - many states allow deadly force to prevent any felony involving the use of force - here, for example, you can kill a purse snatcher who is unarmed. Same goes for a person who punches a school volunteer or bus driver. All felonies involving the use of force. In addition, our courts say that "robbery" includes the escape with the goods, so that deadly force could still be used to stop the robbery even where the robber was fleeing.

    Next, the justification is usually decided at the point force is used. For example, in many places you can use non-deadly force to take back your property or someone else's (as here in KY). If you try to lawfully take back your property and the thief or robber then threatens you with deadly force ("exchanged gunfire") you can use deadly force in self-defense.

    Then, of course, texas is the one state that allows you to kill a thief, under some conditions, while he is fleeing.

    I think there is a pretty good chance these guys would be justified.

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    #41 Bren, Jan 17, 2013
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2013
  2. I don't necessarily agree with this. While I don't research every use of force statute from every state, I find it hard to believe that many states allow you to use deadly force involving a felony where force is used by the suspect. A purse snatcher is normally not going to subject someone to serious bodily injury or death. So how can you justify using deadly force against him?

    If I'm pursuing a purse snatching suspect and fire on him I'd be looking for a new job and possibly a lien on my home. And I have greater protection as a LEO.

  3. Gallium



    In most states, statutes/laws allow for use of deadly force to terminate/thwart a kidnapping, rape or sodomy of a minor.

    In many states deadly force is permissible to thwart a robbery subsequent to a break in of a domicile.

    In some states, the disparity of force is a consideration, and in some other states, so long as the VICTIM can conclusively ("reasonableness standard") express that he or she was in grave fear of his/her life, deadly force is permissible.

    What is so hard to believe about those things I've outlined?

    I find it hard to believe that you're approaching the subject in such a narrow, focused way.

    - G

    Now I'm done. :cool:
  4. I'm aware of the "castle" doctrines. With regards to these statutes, there's normally an automatic presumption of serious bodily injury or death when the person is in your home. That doctrine has been extended to your car & business in my state (TN).

    Exactly what I mentioned. There normally needs to be a reasonable belief of serious bodily injury or death.

    To me a purse snatcher doesn't meet the criteria unless he displays or emphasizes he has a weapon during the strong armed robbery attempt.

    We're talking about a purse snatcher and you introduced several other examples where the use of deadly force would more likely be justified. Such examples as forcible rape or kidnapping of a minor, home invasion, and any time a person is in fear of serious bodily injury or death are fine with me when it comes to the use of deadly force.

    Like I mentioned in my first post, I don't see the same with a purse snatcher. Although it's a robbery by definition in most states, if I was to shoot a purse snatcher as a LEO with no threat of a weapon or serious bodily harm I'd likely lose my job and a wrongful death action. Many courts follow the TN v. Garner standard when it comes to felonies & deadly force.
  5. Trust me, these forums have a lot of this going on. All you need do is follow a thread a few pages and you're bound to run into a health measure of incivility. Many times, it's the same crew doing this.

    I just ignore it for the most part. Think of it this way...

    Except for those whom you choose to care about, what others think and say about you means absolutely nothing.
  6. Bren

    Bren NRA Life Member

    Well, I do research use of force laws of others states. I reviewed this bill for the executive branch before the governor signed it. We borrowed it from Florida's castle doctrine elgislation, as did several others states. In Kentucky, it is KRS 503.050 and 503.070:

    In Kentucky, purse snatching is Robbery 2nd - a felony involvibng the use of force. So is slapping a school bus driver or a teacher (Assault 3rd).

    In Florida it is Fl. St. 776.012 

    In New Hampshire it is § 627:4, but is limited to being on your own property:
    Those are some examples from the top of a quick google search. When I teach the class to law enforcement, I point out that a private citizen can use deadly force in KY in situations that would be a criminal civil rights violation if the police did it.
    #46 Bren, Jan 23, 2013
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2013
  7. Bren

    Bren NRA Life Member

    Kentucky requires no danger to justify deadly force against a burglar or arsonist. One example I use in class is, if you invite your buddy over to a superbowl party and you get in an argument and tell him to leave your house and he says, "I'm not leaving because I'm going to smash your TV" he is then committing a burglary and deadly force is perfectly legal to stop it. The supreme court has mentioned that Kentucky law allows deadly force against anyone who enters or remains unlawfully in your home for5 the purpose of committing ANY crime (felony or misdemeanor). KRS 503.080.

    In Colorado
    So Colorado's law is, in some ways, less strict than Kentucky. In Kentucky, it has to be your own home to use deadly force against a person who comes in uninvited to steal a loaf of bread, but in Colorado, anybody in the house can do it.
    #47 Bren, Jan 23, 2013
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2013
  8. I have no issues with broader legislation involving use of force as you guys have pointed out in KY. I would just not want to be the attorney for a defendant if the plaintiff was the family member of the decedent (the D shot) who wouldn't leave his buddy's house during a superbowl game or the purse snatching suspect who was shot multiple times and had no weapon or failed to display/advise of a weapon during the snatching. It appears the CO statute only outlines deadly force when the person made any unlawful entry to the house or remains in the house after an unlawful entry. That seems to be on point with the castle doctrine.

    We all know that every case is very fact-specific when a court/jury comes to the conclusion that it does. I just would not want those specific scenarios in a wrongful death action. It appears in those limited circumstances that citizens have more latitude when it comes to deadly force than LEOs do.
  9. Bren

    Bren NRA Life Member

    Could be tricky, but we also have immunity from suit for shooting burglars in KY and the plaintiff has to pay for our attorney and all costs, lost pay, etc., if they sue and the court rules that the shooting was justified.
  10. I think we have a similar standard in TN for the same thing.


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