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Universal background check question

Discussion in 'The Okie Corral' started by gwalchmai, Feb 4, 2013.

  1. kensb2

    kensb2 pistol n00b

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    I'm pretty sure they are required to keep them onsite, and show them to the ATF when requested.

    GoogleFU: http://www.fega.com/members/batf.html

    Says they have to keep their 'bound book' in order, show it to the ATF of send copies during the course of a criminal investigation, and keep 4473s for at least 20 years.

    ETA: several people beat me to it. My typing and GoogleFU obviously suck!
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2013
  2. gwalchmai

    gwalchmai Lucky Member

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    Yes. Well. No chance of that, I guess.
     

  3. Atlas

    Atlas transmogrifier

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    Or, they pass such a law, and a few years pass..

    Then someone raises the concern presented in the OP, and that is used as justification for an additional law requiring universal registration of all legally-owned firearms.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2013
  4. RussP

    RussP Super Moderator Moderator

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    Among Obama's 23-points of illumination towards a violence free society is extending the retention of 4473 records with permanent retention of rejected/denied 4473s. I think that's right...
     
  5. pizza_pablo

    pizza_pablo USN Retired

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    Awesome!
    :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
     
  6. gwalchmai

    gwalchmai Lucky Member

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    LG, I don't mean to pick on you. I've read your posts and I think you're a good guy. However, I'd like to explore this post just a little. Bear with me if you will and understand that I don't mean any of this as a personal attack.

    What do you think is the meaning and intent of the Second Amendment?
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2013
  7. skorper

    skorper harborrat

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    Without getting into specifics, identifiers for any firearm encountered by a law enforcement agency can be submitted for a "trace". This will find and include all transfers of the firearm through any FFL back to the earliest.

    In the case of a very old firearm that was never sold through a dealer and never changed hands except through a private sale, the firearm would not be traceable.

    If the government requires all sales to go through an FFL then all firearms will eventually be traceable to the seller and buyer.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2013
  8. spcwes

    spcwes

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    To the OP, this is also our understanding of a system that does not exist as of yet. The people trying to push this agenda have no idea how its going to work, they are just spewing a magical name of something that does not exist. It is full of issues and there are certain criteria that will have to be met for it to be successful and without registration of firearms the proposal that everyone thinks is what is being discussed will not work.
     
  9. gwalchmai

    gwalchmai Lucky Member

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    Correct. I am now responding to any comment about "universal background checks" with "You mean universal registration, right?" This leads into a discussion of the problem, which is helpful.
     
  10. SC Tiger

    SC Tiger Big, educated kitty cat!

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    My LGS maintaines a ledger that states when, and (I think) to whom, each gun is sold. Probably an ATF requirement.
     
  11. gwalchmai

    gwalchmai Lucky Member

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    Yes, as was discussed, this is the system as it exists now. This won't work for "universal background checks (UBC)" because there is no way to enforce it. The antis who are pushing for UBC know this and are using UBC as a springboard for universal registration.
     
  12. IndyGunFreak

    IndyGunFreak

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    I agree... we'll eventually reach a point where guns manufactured after XX date, will have a paper trail somewhere.
     
  13. Z71bill

    Z71bill

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    If Mr First buys a new S&W M&P from #1FFL dealer in 2010 (4473 completed)

    Then Mr First sells the gun to Mr Second in a private sale (no 4473)

    Mr Second sells the gun to #2FFL dealer

    #2FFL sells the gun to me (4473 completed) and I leave it at a crime.

    Police want to track the gun.

    Can they?

    They get the serial number from S&W and it takes them to #1FFL - they have paperwork that they sold the gun to Mr First

    They try and track down Mr First and discover he died in 2012.

    Or Mr First tells the police (honestly) he sold the gun but can't recall / never knew who he sold it to.

    :dunno:


    Change it up --


    If when Mr First sold the gun to Mr Second they used #2FFL dealer to do the transfer so a 4473 was completed -

    #2FFL then sells the gun to me (4473 completed) and it is found at a crime.


    They get the serial number from S&W and it takes them to #1FFL - they have paperwork that they sold the gun to Mr First

    They try and track down Mr First and discover he died in 2012.

    Can the gun be tracked back to me?
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2013
  14. gwalchmai

    gwalchmai Lucky Member

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    Only if they have a registration database associating serial numbers to owners.
     
  15. NickC50310

    NickC50310

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    This is spot on. The gov and or cops cant just snatch up your legally owned and carried firearm to run a trace just for fun.

    Hopefully this can be done without universal registration or i will be standing in line just like everyone else fighting it. Imho it can be done without universal registration.

    Heres how it works: ffl sells firearm to person a. Person a sells firearm two years later to person b. Person a is required to check state id and check for permit to carry or permit to purchase. Bada bing all new laws were followed.

    If person a sells the gun without checking and then the gun is used in a crime gov uses current 4473 tracking methods to find out if person a followed the law. If the gov can prove they did not then person a is punished accordingly. If they cant prove it its just like any other crime.

    Now with that said this method makes it a difficult law to enforce and that is how it should be. No further changes are acceptable to me.

    In all honesty we should all be checking id and permits anyway. As gun owners we have a vested interest in keeping guns out of the wrong hands.

    posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire
     
  16. gwalchmai

    gwalchmai Lucky Member

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    How does this differ from what we have now, in which Person A is expected to verify to the best of his ability that he's not selling to a prohibited person?
     
  17. Z71bill

    Z71bill

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    I think the current standard - at least in Texas -

    Is not - seller is expected to verify to the best of his ability that he's not selling to a prohibited person.

    It only requires the gun not be sold - IF the seller KNOWS or has a reason to think the buyer is not legally able to buy.

    BIG difference.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2013
  18. gwalchmai

    gwalchmai Lucky Member

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    Fair enough. So if Buyer A in the above scenario says the guy showed him a CCW permit, but the guy really never had one, what happens? What about a fake permit? Will the antis accept Buyer A's story?

    The other flaw is this - in order to trace the weapon Buyer A must now keep a bound book.
     
  19. Z71bill

    Z71bill

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    It is a little bit strange under current law -

    I can legally SELL a gun (I violate no law) to a person that can not legally own a gun - and is committing a felony when he buys it from me.

    :dunno:
     
  20. gwalchmai

    gwalchmai Lucky Member

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    You can't legally sell it to him if you know he's prohibited.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2013