close

Privacy guaranteed - Your email is not shared with anyone.

Trouble indicates better things to come.

Discussion in 'Religious Issues' started by Vic Hays, Nov 24, 2012.


  1. Gunhaver

    Gunhaver
    Expand Collapse
    the wrong hands

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2012
    2,736
    0
    I don't understand the draw at all. I remember feeling quite relieved when I realized it was all BS and the itinerary was wiped clean of all the silly stuff I was expected to do. Why anyone would really want to have their entire existence mapped out for them and gleefully adhere to someone else's arbitrary rule system is beyond me.

    My stepfather has a masters in nuclear science and still believes that radiocarbon dating is flawed enough to be completely unreliable . The man understands the science on about 10 levels higher than I can yet he dismisses the whole concept based on willful adherence to what 1 book says. That's a special kind of nagging, persistent ignorance that I remember myself, and will never miss.
     

    Wanna kill these ads? We can help!
    #41 Gunhaver, Nov 26, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2012
  2. Vic Hays

    Vic Hays
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2002
    9,219
    76
    Location:
    My home is in heaven
    There is a difference between someone else's silly rules and righteous principles of living and knowing the One who is righteous. Maybe that was what was so discouraging for you thinking that those silly rules were pleasing to God.

    Jesus didn't think much of a bunch of silly rules either.
     

    #42 Vic Hays, Nov 26, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2012
  3. Japle

    Japle
    Expand Collapse
    John, Viera, Fl

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2000
    820
    12
    Location:
    Viera, Florida
    You posted something, but it wasn't a definition of anything. Where does it say anywhere in the Bible that "generation" means what you say it means?

    I'm not asking for an interpretation or someone's opinion. Jesus said "generation", not tribe or people or age. You can't just pull a definition out of someone else's writing and substitute it for the words of your "savior".
     
  4. Brasso

    Brasso
    Expand Collapse
    Millennium Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 1998
    5,272
    571
    Location:
    Stranger in a strange land.
    G1074
    Mar 13:30 VerilyG281 I sayG3004 unto you,G5213 thatG3754 thisG3778 generationG1074 shall notG3364 pass,G3928 tillG3360 allG3956 these thingsG5023 be done.G1096


    γενεά
    genea
    ghen-eh-ah'
    From (a presumed derivative of) G1085; a generation; by implication an age (the period or the persons): - age, generation, nation, time.

    The Aramaic Pes-hitta reads tribe. This is the oldest known manuscript and is directly from Aramaic, a sister language to Hebrew and most likely the original language of Mark.

    Most people have two thoughts on this. The prophecy He is speaking about is both present and future. He could mean that exact generation, in which the temple would be destroyed, and the future generation who would witness the fig tree (Israel) blooming.

    Both are most likely the case as God made several promises that Israel would never pass away. The entire Bible is a history of the promise to Abraham and how that promise is fulfilled.
     
    #44 Brasso, Nov 27, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2012
  5. muscogee

    muscogee
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2005
    5,860
    0
    Location:
    San Antonio, TX
    There are original Aramaic texts (not translations) of what Jesus said? When were they written?
     
  6. Brasso

    Brasso
    Expand Collapse
    Millennium Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 1998
    5,272
    571
    Location:
    Stranger in a strange land.
    I have no idea. The Pes-hitta (written that way because of the forum software) is from about 400ad. The Eastern Church claims it's original, but who knows. It's not a translation. It is the oldest known texts.
     
    #46 Brasso, Nov 27, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2012
  7. Japle

    Japle
    Expand Collapse
    John, Viera, Fl

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2000
    820
    12
    Location:
    Viera, Florida
    In other words, there's no way to verify whether it's authentic or relates in any way to what Jesus meant.

    So, we're back to where we started. Jesus said "generation" and not "tribe" or "people" or "age". We know what "generation" means. He was saying that his prophesy would be fulfilled within the life span of some of the people he was speaking to. Spin it any way you want. That’s what he said and folks have been trying to talk their way out of it for going on 2,000 years.
     
  8. Brasso

    Brasso
    Expand Collapse
    Millennium Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 1998
    5,272
    571
    Location:
    Stranger in a strange land.
    Either you're being obtuse on purpose. Or...

    Maybe you really believe that Jesus spoke modern english? Or better yet, Victorian English.

    "Generation" is a translation from Greek. It has many meanings, one of which is generation, as we think of it.

    The oldest text is Aramaic and clearly says tribe, one of the other meanings of the Greek genea.

    I've shown this plainly. I'm so sorry that this throws a wrench into your Christianity bashing machine.
     
    #48 Brasso, Nov 27, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2012
  9. Japle

    Japle
    Expand Collapse
    John, Viera, Fl

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2000
    820
    12
    Location:
    Viera, Florida
    You keep saying that. Your claim doesn’t mean that Jesus meant anything other than “generation” as we commonly use the word.

    While some early written records of the words of Jesus may have been in Aramaic, all the evidence I’ve seen indicates that the Gospels were written in Greek. Archeological records demonstrate that Greek remained the common language of the writings of church leaders for hundreds of years.

    As you say, "Generation" is a translation from Greek. Possibly you can provide some evidence that early copies of the verses we’re discussing can be translated as something other than “generation” as we normally use it.
     
  10. Brasso

    Brasso
    Expand Collapse
    Millennium Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 1998
    5,272
    571
    Location:
    Stranger in a strange land.
    I just did.

    The Aramaic is the oldest of ALL manuscripts. It's not a translation.

    If that's not good enough, then there's nothing more to say. Really, do I need to draw pictures?

    Israel hasn't been a nation for thousands of years. How much more needs to be said that He was speaking of the future? 2520 years. 1948 was exactly 2520 years.


    And as far as the Greek goes...Just because the oldest ones they found a couple hundred years ago were in Greek doesn't mean they spoke Greek. Very few scholars today believe Greek was the primary language anymore. It is filled with references to Hebrew and Aramaic. It's almost laughable to think they wrote it in Greek. The Disciples were fishermen for the most part. The only writers that could speak Greek were Paul and Luke. Paul studied under Gamliel, the only Rabbi of that period that was allowed to teach his students Greek. He was also the greatest Rabbi of the time. Greek was considered a bastard tongue. Jews, for the most part, didn't speak it. Gamliel was allowed to do so because the Jews saw the need for at least some to speak it.

    The official church, and I use that term loosely, for hundreds of years was the RCC. They were Romans. They spoke Greek. No surprise that all of the early church writings were in Greek. They killed all of the early Jewish believers and destroyed anything that remotely smelled Jewish.
     
    #50 Brasso, Nov 27, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2012
  11. Japle

    Japle
    Expand Collapse
    John, Viera, Fl

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2000
    820
    12
    Location:
    Viera, Florida
    Please provide some evidence of that.

    Exactly. So Jesus couldn’t have been talking about Israel. But you said he was talking about Israel. I find these conflicting claims very conflicting.

    Please provide some evidence of that.

    They killed them all? What a tragedy! No one was left to carry on! Oh, wait. If they were all killed and no one was left …… That means ……

    Uhhhh .....
     
  12. Brasso

    Brasso
    Expand Collapse
    Millennium Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 1998
    5,272
    571
    Location:
    Stranger in a strange land.
    You're being an ass on purpose now.

    The current nation of Israel is a country with a government and constitution. Over 2000 years ago it was too. In between........not so much. I've already said Israel could be the people or the Land.

    Since you have no interest in anything that might go against your preconceived agenda, this is over.
     
    #52 Brasso, Nov 27, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2012
  13. Japle

    Japle
    Expand Collapse
    John, Viera, Fl

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2000
    820
    12
    Location:
    Viera, Florida
    Let me get this straight. You said that by “generation”, Jesus meant Israel. Then you defined Israel.

    So, what you’re saying is that, when Jesus told his audience, "Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done", that he was including in “generation” every Jew who was alive at the time and every Jew and many Christians who would live during the next several thousand years. Or did he mean it would never happen? You said, “Israel is the people. Israel is the Land. They are one and same. Neither will ever disappear”. If that’s the case, what Jesus said meant nothing.

    It seems to me that you’ve painted yourself into a corner by defining “generation” in a way that turns Jesus’ words into nonsense. Then you call me an ass and run off.

    Excellent debating technique you’ve got there.
     
  14. Tilley

    Tilley
    Expand Collapse
    Man of Steel

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2006
    1,750
    2
    Location:
    USA
    Wow...and you call me a troll. :whistling:
     
  15. Brasso

    Brasso
    Expand Collapse
    Millennium Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 1998
    5,272
    571
    Location:
    Stranger in a strange land.
    Yes. THAT IS WHAT I MEANT. THANK GOD. YOU FINALLY GOT IT. BRAVO.

    I don't think I could have found another way to say it.

    How so? Both are true. The Land is still there. The people are still there. Do you dispute this? Did I miss the news last night where that chunk of earth disappeared? Has that area ever been anything but Israel? Even before the British Mandate there were more Jews living there than any other ethnic group. It has never had any other recognized constitutional government.
     
    #55 Brasso, Nov 28, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2012
  16. Glock36shooter

    Glock36shooter
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    May 30, 2010
    3,157
    0
    Because you are.
     
  17. Glock36shooter

    Glock36shooter
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    May 30, 2010
    3,157
    0
    But if the land and the people will always be there... then these things will never come to pass. If the generation never ends (The Generation of Israel)... then it's all just bluster.
     
  18. Japle

    Japle
    Expand Collapse
    John, Viera, Fl

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2000
    820
    12
    Location:
    Viera, Florida
    You beat me to it.

    Posted (sort of) by Jesus: "Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done."

    Since "this generation" will never pass, "all these things" will never be done.
     
  19. Brasso

    Brasso
    Expand Collapse
    Millennium Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 1998
    5,272
    571
    Location:
    Stranger in a strange land.
    I'm still confused as to what you mean.

    "...till all these things be done, this generation will not pass..."

    Sound like these things will happen BEFORE this generation passes (which it won't). Contextually of course, this is speaking of the time before He returns, and would inlcude those alive during that time.

    And of course, you are both being obtuse again, on purpose. I still fail to understand your lack of intelligence regarding the plain text above. I can only assume you are acting stupid on purpose.

    I've already stated that the prophecy is for both the time it was said and for the end times, as is evident by the wording. How can Israel both be destroyed (the temple) and bloom at the same time?


    I understand your need to disprove the Bible as you are unwilling to acknowledge that you are currently destined for hell, but why do you keep trying to combine two concepts into a statement about what is going to happen to Israel just before He returns, and who Israel is?
     
    #59 Brasso, Nov 28, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2012
  20. Japle

    Japle
    Expand Collapse
    John, Viera, Fl

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2000
    820
    12
    Location:
    Viera, Florida
    No wonder you’re confused. You’ve got it backwards. The text reads, “this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done”, not “till all these things be done, this generation will not pass”.

    It’s funny; you think I’m being stupid on purpose. Believe me when I say I don’t think the same about you! :rofl:

    Try to understand that you’re talking to adults here. You’re trying to tell us that the NT was mistranslated and “generation” should have been written as “Israel, the people and the land, which will never disappear”. As has already been pointed out, that turns Jesus’ statement into gibberish.

    And even if you were right, what does that tell us about the NT? If it’s that badly translated on an important statement by Jesus, what else is messed up? Can we trust any of the NT text?