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Discussion in 'Caliber Corner' started by G-34, Nov 18, 2012.
I think a lot of this comes from the fact that 9mm is the most widely used handgun caliber. Most thugs tend to buy the cheapest ammo, and often have poor shooting skills. Bad ammo + bad shot placement = failure to stop. NYPD issues the G19 and there have been many reports of one-shot stops.
I carry a 9mm, 45ACP, or 10mm Glock depending on my mood. I like them all for different reasons. However, I find that I have tighter groups and just shoot better with the 9mm.
The 9mm never had a great reputation as a stopper no matter what bullet was in it, or how much it cost, until relatively recently in the cartridge's lifespan. Up until (depending on who you talk to) sometime in the 1990's when bullet design "picked up". Pretty much the SD ammo until then stunk on ice or was still "experimental".
True, that's why I carry a G27
9mm still doesn't equal .357
I'm not sure I'd want to shoot this stuff through my m&p. for one its not gonna be pleasant to shoot and 2) I'm not sure it's safe.
Give me some Speer Gold Dots or 147 grain HSTs
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Velocity is quite impressive, and the energy....but yes, those bullets were pushed beyond the envelope. I know, because I'm looking at them on my desk.
In the real world, I have to think they WILL NOT expand like that.
I concur with your thoughts. However. I'd also like to add that there have also been numerous failures to stop with .40s and .45s in handguns. There was one a few years back where a BG was shot like 17 times center mass with .40 180 grain Gold Dots and .223 Hornady TAP and he was still fighting when the responding officers cuffed him. He didn't die until later in the hostpital. I remember another similar incident with the .40 round. Before caliber or expansion even become an issue, rounds need to 1.) penetrate deep enough to hit the vitals and 2.) said rounds have to actually hit and damage something vital. In the aforementioned case, the FBI actually investigated the shooting and determined yes, they shot the suspect a whole bunch of times and yes, the .40 rounds had penetrated deep enough (.223 rounds did not) and expanded but none of the rounds which struck the assailant hit anything that would quickly stop the fight ie: CNS, heart, lungs, major arteries, liver.
So, before we blame a failure to stop on the fact the shooter used a 9mm, we first need to consider whether or not penetraton and shot placement were adequate before we should even consider whether he should have used a bigger caliber. Yes, .40 and .45 will inflict more damage than 9mm in an equally placed shot but that doesn't mean much if you don't hit anything vital.
Just an observation. Because the 9mm is a smaller round, the hollowpoint cavity is inherently smaller than in a larger caliber. All early hollowpoint designs were suseptible to plugging but the 9mm especially so because the cavities were smaller than in, for instance, a .45 ACP. Even barring the cavity being plugged with cloth or something, there is significantly less room for stuff to get into the cavity and facilitate expansion. I remember reading something, I believe by Mas Ayoob, who said that was the reason behind the 9mm Hydra-Shoks poor performance compared to the same design in .40 or even more so in .45. The 9mm has a smaller cavity to begin with and when you put a post in the middle of it, that leaves even less room.
Never say never... I suspect that with the right single shot pistol loaded with a full compressed case of an extremely fast powder while also having an extremely thick barrel, it would be possible. Basically a controlled explosion...
I've read that Federal HST is actually the Hydra-Shok bullet without the post. (AKA "Hydra-Shok Two")
Whether it's a tweaked HS or not HST amazes me with its consistent expansion in all calibers.
It may be based on a hydra-shok without the post but that's definitely not all they've done. Look at the slits in the jacket on the HST and also the shape of the round when expanded then compare to a similar caliber and weight hydra-shok. Definitely not the same bullet. I've read Federal puts wire framework in the bullets to give them that consistent flower shape upon expansion.
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Ballistics By The Inch's 9mm page at http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/9luger.html shows one load with a heavy bullet, the 147gr Hydra-Shok. They measured 1007 fps out of a 5 inch barrel, 1067 fps out of a 10 inch barrel, and a max of 1096 fps out of a 17 inch barrel. There just isn't enough powder capacity in that case to gain much advantage from a long barrel using a heavy bullet. I doubt that monkeying around with faster powders generating excessive pressures will push this up to anywhere near 357 mag velocity.
40 grain .22LR 1,400 FPS. Whoopdi Doo.
I love the 9mm but it is in the mid range of SD along with the .45 ACP and .40 S&W.
.357 Mag can go to a much higher level as long as it has the barrel legnth where it is more of a hunting round than a SD round as can the 10mm.
The loads sold by manufacturers as SD loads are all pretty similar and are designed to meet the general FBI specs and such. I can load one of my .357's with a really hot load and if it goes through the target then energy was wasted and now even if I hit, I have a bullet looking for a backstop. Not good.
Lots of folks like to make two holes when they hunt, that is not a good idea in SD. 400-500 ft.lbs in a human is what seems to work well.
174 vs 501ft lbs
.355 vs.357 whoopie.
But the 9mm has to be shaped to feed and not deform on the feed ramp.
I had some of the early HSs in .38 which were basically a Hollow based wadcutter reversed with a post. they were impressive, but, there is always a point of diminishing returns with everything and unfrtunately humans are slow to grasp this. We think "If a certain velocity is good, then more must be better."
As one poster has pointed out a bullet that goes through and through spends less energy on the target than one at less velocity that remains in the target. It is also that way with expansion but it is very hard to get peple to grasp. The only "energy" that can cause the expansion of a bullet is that which the bullet itself brought with it. In essence the bullet spends a prtion of it's energy on itself, of course mangling tissue in the bargain. But it is that nasty "diminishing returns" issue that makes it fodder for speculation.
Ihe 9mm HS with the post is an example of something not being a "great idea across the board". If you took a .38/.357 bullet, gave it the same profile and incresed the cavity opening proportionate to the extra.002" and fired it at the same velocity into the same medium I doubt there would be much difference.
What is overlooked, when people start choosing up sides and picking their favrite paradigm to defend, is the completely uncontrolable variables involve in external ballistics in the SD/Gunfighting" realm. Everything from the target weight it's BMI fluid in the tissues, clothing, angle of shot, and many other factors play into "what would be the perfect round for THIS situation?".
I have faced it, for instance, in chosing a hunting bullet for deer. Lets say I happen to know, that if I drive a fast expanding 130gn .308 bullet at top speed it will flatted a deer, if I get the "picture perfect broadside shot, in it's tracks. On the other hand a shot where the deer is quartering may have the problem of the bullet blowing up on a large bone. If I choose say a 165gn bullet it would smash throught a hipbone and reach vitals, but on a broadside shot it will likely break a rib on the way in, expand a bit, hopefully hit the vitals and break a rib or two as it exits to spend it's energy on something else. I can almost promise it will not drop the deer as fast as the lighter fast expanding bullet.
This is similar to the choices we make with SD ammo, couple it with the fact that the "deer" is likely shooting back, and all the other variables and we shuld be askiking "How Many Guns Do you carry to meet all the possiblilities?" We each have to make a choice and before we are critical of the chices of others, bear in mind "every handgun round .22 lr and up up HAS stopped someone, somewhere, with one shot and every handgun round from .22lr up HAS failed to stop someone, somewhere, with one shot."
Handguns suck at stopping people but they fit on the belt nicely. Your choice might work or it might not, same with the other guy's. But at least you both made a choice and that is 99% of the fight anyway.
Yeah I'm sorry but 9mm will never be 357 magnum or even 357 sig. What 9mm has in it's favor is low recoil and high capacity. That is a great thing and 9mm is my second favorite cartridge for that reason.
Am I the only one thankful that 9mm is not equal to a .357 magnum? cost, blast, weight? I love my 6" 357 magnum but I have only carried it in the woods I carry my 9mm 24/7 365.
when I hear people saying they would never carry anything less powerful than a ."357 MAGNUM" I ask them if I can see it...they walk to their safe and get it out and show me, I then laugh.