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This is how bad draw techniques are passed on...

Discussion in 'Tactics and Training' started by Mamaluke, May 9, 2010.

  1. Gallium

    Gallium CLM

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    Mar 26, 2003
    m'luke,

    Why you had to blow me up like that????? :rofl:




    (Kidding, that is not I :supergrin:)
     


  2. PhoneCop

    PhoneCop TeleDetective

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    The only thing I saw which I didn't like I can attribute to the nervousness and "disjointeness" of slowing down a technique nornally done faster. You do some weird things when you first attempt to slow down and break down a series of movements you normally do quickly. It was that left hand high up over the weapon. I suspect that during a "normal" draw the hand doesn't do that."
     
  3. beatcop

    beatcop

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    Other than "acting technique" he's teaching current doctrine.
     
  4. NMGlocker

    NMGlocker BOOM headshot

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    Jun 29, 2001
    New Mexico
    He had just a hint of "bowling" going on, but otherwise he has a better draw than the majority of people I see shooting IDPA matches.
     
  5. thegriz18

    thegriz18 Paper Killer

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    Jun 17, 2007
    Friend Zone
    What do you mean by "bowling"?
     
  6. Sam Spade

    Sam Spade Lifetime Member

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    May 4, 2003
    Arcing the gun hand upwards such as how you move when you launch a bowling ball.
     
  7. Mamaluke

    Mamaluke

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    Aug 23, 2006
    His support hand is muzzled by the gun on what I consider count 2 of the draw...very unsafe. He can never do intermediate or close contact shooting the way his support hand is positioned. Overall poor technique.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2010
  8. Mamaluke

    Mamaluke

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    Aug 23, 2006
    :) No way it would be you!
     
  9. Gallium

    Gallium CLM

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    Mar 26, 2003
    David is going to be here shortly to tell me what the experts do, and don't do...and underscore and remind me of how little I know.

    If I were his (your, a, any) trainer, here are a few things I would tell him (you, anyone).


    1. A draw-stroke and presentation are not part of a "basic" firearms shooting course. Consequently, I would want to see gun handling such as loading, unloading, dry fire, a single shot drill (with snap caps/dummy rounds mixed in) and clearing ammo malfunctions before we got to drawing / presenting from a retention device >returning to a retention device.

    If you want to know why I would do all of these (useless, redundant, non-applicable) things BEFORE I got to presentation from retention...time and space allowing, I'll answer if asked.

    2. I cannot help myself. When I am demonstrating presentation from retention, as soon as my gun comes out, I am MOVING. To the left, right, forward/back, diagonal rear to a crouch...if a circumstance requires me to draw my gun (I am not a cop) it means there is some circumstance where I feel the use of deadly (physical) force is necessary.

    3. I teach "fast to the mother****ing gun!" I would not demonstrate a draw-stroke as this to anyone in person, and / or worse, have it recorded for posterity, and worst yet, to be recorded and posted on the internet. Fast to the gun, because if I THINK I need my gun, I probably do in a bad way, and I want to have it in a position where it does me the most good. Lollygagging (slow draw-stroke) to the gun is a fine way to ingrain a really bad habit.

    4. I got no real complaints with this grip in the holster, I respectfully :)cool:) disagree with M'luke - I do not see any real or close muzzling going on. What I do see is a bit of slop between clearing holster and where both hands get on the gun. I also have no issue with how he finally gets the gun on target. I do it different, but at the end of the day, I don't split hairs over things that accomplish the same goal.

    5. When he is returning the gun to the holster, he is still stationary, and he does not do anything resembling a wide angle + orbital scan.

    If the person I am training, is at that point in time needing to understand the dynamics of a proper draw-stroke, then there are things further up on the scale of hierarchy of needs I want to have them ingrained as second nature, so every chance I get, it gets put out there. As stated above, those would be -


    • fast, sure and aggressive to the gun
    • if you have to get to your gun, MOVE off of where you are
    • on the process of returning the gun to the holster, do so reluctantly, go to a depressed weapon/low ready; break your grip (get the non-dominant hand off the gun or go to safety circle) and scan before putting the gun back in holster.

    Summary:
    I expect the proficient firearms instructor to cover all of these things in the two minutes he used in the video. If you are doing a video or class on presenting from holster, and you do not INTEGRATE movement, fast access, scanning, and slow, methodical reluctant re-holstering, into the process of presenting from holster, I have little use for your services.

    Your mile-age of course, :cool: may differ. That's just my way, and I've seen a lot of things done a lot of ways over the years, and still get me/us to that point where we want to get to.

    'Drew
     
  10. Gallium

    Gallium CLM

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    Mar 26, 2003

    Bowling / Fishing - I can never get the semantics right. I thought fishing is gun up above sight/target line then back down on target,

    bowling - gun dips below sight target line, then back up on target.

    Either way, both are inefficiencies of motion, and since I neither bowl nor fish :embarassed: I cannot claim that anything I've written on these two things are accurate.


    'Drew
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2010
  11. beatcop

    beatcop

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    New England
    I was just happy he didn't shoot himself.....
     
  12. Oramac

    Oramac

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    not to hijack the thread, but what do you do in a situation where moving is really not an option? i say this because, at my work (cant say where, but its in a generally cramped space behind a counter), i am severely limited in my available movement if i want to maintain anything like a reasonable firing lane. the minute i move left/right, i've lost all LOS to the target and moving straight back (in my mind) really doesnt help anything besides narrowing my LOS.

    thanks!
     
  13. GlocksterPaulie

    GlocksterPaulie Perfectionist

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    Dec 16, 2003
    Damned if I know
    I wish he had shown the weapon to be clear/safe before muzzling the camera guy.

    Paulie:whistling:
     
  14. Gallium

    Gallium CLM

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    Mar 26, 2003
    My opinion: The tactics you used are based on your circumstances + your training.

    Why do you need to go to your gun? Is someone in the process of pointing a gun at you? If yes, are you gonna stay there, or duck, or step off in either direction, or clear the counter? :)

    Suggestions: Get a transparent barrier put in. Or, wear a bullet resistant vest if the likelihood of you being shot @ is high.

    If you can't move, you can't move...so I would hone being able to spot trouble from a distance, and either not be there when it shows up, or have something in "12GA + 3" Magnum round + 00buck for a warm welcome.





    That was something else that I noted, but I let that one slide, because it appears that we did not see the start of the video, and he did say "again, we are going to demonstrate that the weapon is unloaded...no magazines in the magwell, etc etc".
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2010
  15. NMGlocker

    NMGlocker BOOM headshot

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    Jun 29, 2001
    New Mexico
    Moving should not be an automatic response to drawing.
    You should train moving left, right and not moving at all.
    Why is that?
    Because moving isn't always the correct answer and you should never have a Pavlovian response to the draw.
    When would moving not be the correct answer?
    If you were assaulted while changing a flat next to a busy freeway or standing at a bus stop. What good would it do you to move out of the way of a 115gr. projectile and into the path of a 4 ton vehicle?
     
  16. Gallium

    Gallium CLM

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    Mar 26, 2003

    Then I would move in the vertical plane (from crouched, to up). Chances are, given the scenario you describe, I MIGHT not have the opportunity to access my gun anyways, so I will need to either stand, and defend, or create distance between my and the threat so I can defend myself.

    I'm 40+ yrs old, been stabbed a few times, been shot at a few times, been in the heart of a few riots, talked down guns screwed up my chin and nose once or twice...I think I'll do what I do, and you can continue to do what you do.

    How about that? :)

    'Drew
     
  17. Gallium

    Gallium CLM

    28,685
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    Mar 26, 2003
    The "tactics" one uses should always be driven by the circumstances, and the level of one's capability (training/physique/mindset).

    If the circumstance calls for me to go hands on, I am not going to draw my gun. Likewise, if there are physical/logistical impediments to moving from the space I am occupying, then logic and common sense dictates one would take that action providing the highest odds of surviving, and winning the encounter (sorry Glockster Paulie! :embarassed:).

    When I train, and when I demonstrate, most often than not, I incorporate body movement in demonstrating gun from or to holster. There has been no compelling data sets or evidence to indicate this would not be the proper course of action in 99.95% of the times a gun is drawn.