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This is evidence of God

Discussion in 'Religious Issues' started by Wake_jumper, Jan 23, 2013.

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  1. void *

    void * Dereference Me!

    Do you know what falsification is? Do you understand that you can't really prove anything, you can only disprove? (Excluding mathematics and logic that do not necessarily have to map to an actual reality)

    Do you understand that if they do their calculations and can say 'Ok, if we can look and see Y, that will prove BBT cannot be true, if we look and see X, that is consistent with BBT', that is *not* extrapolation?

    There's a model in quantum physics called the 'Minimal Supersymmetric Standard Model'. That model makes testable predictions - one of which is the mass of the Higgs boson, if such a boson existed (as it was not actually known for a while if it did - just that quantum physics predicted it should). Experimentation indicated a lower limit of the Higgs mass that was higher than the upper limit the MSSV predicted. When the Higgs boson was found, it had a mass of 125GeV. This is also above the Higgs mass the MSSV model predicted.

    So, question for you: Was that all extrapolation, or a falsifiable posit that was actually falsified? Given the data that the higgs boson has a mass of around 125GeV, is it reasonable to exclude the models that do not have lower limits below 125GeV and upper limits above 125GeV, while keeping those that do in the running, or not?

    AFAIK *no* potential model predicted CMB other than the BBT. That being the case, is it reasonable to say 'Ok, we'll go with that until we either find a better model or can falsify it', or isn't it?

    Prove the sun will come up tomorrow, without using any extrapolation.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2013
  2. Cream Soda Kid

    Cream Soda Kid

    1,252
    1
    Jul 16, 2010
    Colorado
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    You can believe or not, belief is a choice and choices have consequences.
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  3. Cavalry Doc

    Cavalry Doc MAJ (USA Ret.)

    34,969
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    Feb 22, 2005
    Republic of Texas
    Swish and a miss on the whole scientific argument......

    Real science neither proves whether a deity has existed or not.


    There will always be the faithful that argue differently. You're one of them... Get used to it.
     
  4. Cavalry Doc

    Cavalry Doc MAJ (USA Ret.)

    34,969
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    Feb 22, 2005
    Republic of Texas
    Geko, the goal posts have always been right there. Neither of us can kick a definitive field goal through the goal posts.

    Only one of us claims to have knowledge on whether a deity had or had not existed. Only one of us can really claim to be without a firm belief of whether a deity has or has not existed.

    Be honest, just this one time. Did you post the following:



    You are what you are, even if you deny it. Strawman? Really? Pot calling the kettle black again? If you can't see it, it's even more funny than it is now.

    :cool:
     
  5. void *

    void * Dereference Me!

    We are not currently discussing whether a deity has existed or not. We are discussing why you seem to think that the BBT is any different than any other actual scientific theory ever. There is also nothing in the BBT that says 'there can't have been a deity ever', so if you are attempting to claim such, it's a straw man.

    That quote is from a letter to Nature by Georges Lemaître, and it is basically the initial proposal of the BBT. Note that it does not claim that this proved there was no deity, and also note that Georges Lemaître was a Catholic priest.

    So again, I will ask,

    Given that the observational and experimental data we have is consistent with BBT, given that there are falsifiable predictions BBT has made that not only have *not* been falsified but were predicted before the measurements could even be made, but were later actually made and found to be consistent with BBT, and given that the theory does not in fact claim there is no deity, why do you have a problem with people provisionally accepting BBT as true if they are explicitly willing to throw it out and adopt a newer, better model should one be found?

    If your answer is simply 'but they're extrapolating and using imagination', please prove the sun will come up tomorrow without using extrapolation or imagination.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2013
  6. Cavalry Doc

    Cavalry Doc MAJ (USA Ret.)

    34,969
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    Feb 22, 2005
    Republic of Texas
    So, you missed the entire thread topic yet again.
     
  7. void *

    void * Dereference Me!

    The current sub-thread is not about the BBT proving or disproving a deity. It's about why you refuse to treat it like any other scientific theory. If you disagree, please quote where I've stated in this thread that BBT disproves a deity. You are simply making a claim I've never made as though it somehow invalidates everything I've stated.

    Unless, of course, you're going to claim that you think it somehow states that there can't be a deity, and that therefore you think it is not scientific. If that's the case, I will just again point out that this claim is erroneous, the theory itself makes no claim about deities, and that the BBT was initially proposed by a Catholic priest.

    If that's not what you're claiming, then please explain why you feel the BBT cannot be provisionally accepted, and rejected in the future if necessary, like any other scientific theory has - including the ones like Newtonian physics that ran into data from observation and experimentation indicating they could not actually be true, and were actually rejected when a better, more explanatory theory that was supported by evidence and experimentation (just like Newtonian physics actually was, up until we found data that contradicted it) came along.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2013
  8. Geko45

    Geko45 Smartass Pilot CLM

    17,115
    1,152
    Nov 1, 2002
    KCXO
    Of course that is my quote. I have never denied it, but what does that have to do with the Big Bang vs. Big Chill? You keep trying to redirect the conversation away from your error, but everyone can see exactly what you are up to. I never made any claim about evidence for or against god in post #93 in this thread. It wasn't even what I was getting at. Quoting me on another topic that is completely unrelated is moot.

    Hooligan and Void called you on this as well, but I don't expect you to acknowledge your error. This is why you are intellectually dishonest. At least I own what I say, your goal is to obfuscate the conversation to the point that no one can keep track of who said what. You tell Hooligan to google "Geko45 glocktalk inductive". Why? Again, what does my position on that matter have anything to do with my post #93 in this thread?

    You claimed that modern Big Bang theory is mostly speculation. I've called you out on that unsupported assertion. Set aside the whole "evidence for or against god" argument for a moment and back up your own statement. What basis do you have to suggest that physicists and cosmologists are mostly speculating?

    Specifically, back up this statement. It is my position that you can't and that you are in fact speculating much more than the scientists you accuse. Have you read the scientific journals on these matters? Have you investigated and read peer reviewed papers or are you spitballing based on what you hear in popular media?
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2013
  9. chickenwing

    chickenwing

    1,957
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    Sep 24, 2010
    Well done sir. Clear and concise. That is how you completely destroy a troll.



    Careful though, it might get butt hurt and go whine to a mod.
     
  10. juggy4711

    juggy4711 Nimrod Son

    3,060
    0
    Sep 20, 2006
    Galveston County, TX
    You really are messed up in the head. I can't even tell if you are trying to agree or not. The imagined explanations you reference are language models. Language not science. The science is based on math and is in no way imagined. It doesn't matter what language one uses bang or chill. It doesn't even matter if there is/are/were deity/s or not, which science in no way addresses.

    Our current understanding of science since the quantum revolution is correct and every experiment we have ever done since then proves it.

    You are obsessed with whether one believes in gods or not. It doesn't make a difference in science one way or the other. It is what it is, like it or not.
     
  11. Cavalry Doc

    Cavalry Doc MAJ (USA Ret.)

    34,969
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    Feb 22, 2005
    Republic of Texas
    The BBT is a scientific theory. It's a pretty good guess at what is causing the witnessed expansion. It may or may not change as more information comes along. That's how science works sometimes. The most reasonable guess that fits. Unlike gravity which is present and can be observed today, we can't actually watch the Big Bang occur again in full scale.
     
  12. Cavalry Doc

    Cavalry Doc MAJ (USA Ret.)

    34,969
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    Feb 22, 2005
    Republic of Texas
    Not mostly speculation, read post 88 again, a lot of people speculating is different than a theory being mostly speculation. It requires speculation to describe an event in detail that occurred billions of years prior to the existance of modern man. There are some things you can't go back and see.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2013
  13. Cavalry Doc

    Cavalry Doc MAJ (USA Ret.)

    34,969
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    Feb 22, 2005
    Republic of Texas
    I was agreeing with you on one of your points. But you saw fit to extrapolate a bit on your own and lose your manners again. We were talking about math, and humans perception of reality.

    Try to be a little more adult, it'll help.
     
  14. Cavalry Doc

    Cavalry Doc MAJ (USA Ret.)

    34,969
    9
    Feb 22, 2005
    Republic of Texas
    Actually, what he did was sidestep acknowledgment of his bias and incorrectly state my position, again.

    BBT is just an example where some speculation and extrapolation are required to explain the event in detail.
    Which is why it is still being questioned by scientists.
     
  15. Geko45

    Geko45 Smartass Pilot CLM

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    KCXO
    :animlol:

    Too funny! It's almost as if time is not linear in CavDoc's world and effect can precede cause. I've known that causality is not absolute in the quantum world for some time, but Doc here may be the first classical example that invalidates the First Cause argument.

    You can squirm as much as you like Doc, but it seems that the consensus is in. You are just making stuff up now to save face and the more absurd the lengths to which you will go, the more foolish you sound. At any rate, thanks for the entertainment.

    :wavey:
     
  16. void *

    void * Dereference Me!

    You're contradicting yourself.

    Either it's a scientific theory, with confirming data from observation and experimentation, which is being provisionally accepted (with good reason) until data falsifying it is found or a better more explanatory theory is likewise backed by confirming data - or it's 'just an example where some speculation and extrapolation are required'.

    You can't have it both ways. "Theory" in science means backed up by data to the point of being accepted. It does not mean 'just a guess' or 'just an example'.

    And as others have noted, people *notice* when you try to pull a fast one like that.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2013
  17. Geko45

    Geko45 Smartass Pilot CLM

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    Yes, it would appear that he is rehashing the "just a theory" argument in an attempt to imply that proper scientific rigor is not being applied. No data or hard evidence will be forthcoming as CavDoc never posts anything to which he might actually be held accountable. Speculation, aspersion, obfuscation and misdirection are his preferred tools.

    Funny how he continually employs theistic arguments and tactics though he claims agnosticism, isn't it?
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2013
  18. Glock36shooter

    Glock36shooter

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    You are aware that what is being explained is what the math actually illustrates right? It isn't just this imaginative guess. It is an explanation of calculations. Have you found a flaw in any of the math or are you just talking out of your rear?
     
  19. Glock36shooter

    Glock36shooter

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    I'm shocked sometimes by how little science people in the medical field actually know. Many of the MDs I know understand their job to a T... but they couldn't tell you the first thing about other sciences. As you could imagine many PAs and Nurses are even worse. I refuse to consult with a doctor as a PCP if they're religious. It just illustrates a disconnect in logic.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2013
  20. Glock36shooter

    Glock36shooter

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    What does that have to do with the BBT? Why can you never have an honest conversation with people? Why do you have to constantly try and drag up other threads that have nothing to do with anything? I really do feel like you have a collection of files on all of us at your house with links a quotes like some kind of creepy internet stalker. That says a lot about how damaged you are as a person.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2013
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