Thinking about the use of drones in America

Discussion in 'Political Issues' started by Razorsharp, Feb 8, 2013.


  1. RussP

    Moderator

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    Yes, one mistake is too many, and yes, it has happened "many" times, and for many reasons.

    Rarity requires comparison. You say it is not rare, yet you refuse to quantify the number of mistakes to the total number of warrant services. Why?

    You say more than one is too many. Using your number, you would say that 5 out of 10,000, just to pick a number, 0.05% is not rare. At what percentage of total warrant services does the number pass from rare to not rare?
     

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  2. How many people do doctors kill each year through mistakes?

    How many non alcohol related traffic deaths are there per year in the country?

    If you want to hang officers for mistakes let's get the gallows ready for everybody.
     

    #22 CAcop, Feb 8, 2013
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2013
  3. I live in a rural area. One day, while I was outside, I noticed a van parked at the end of my driveway. It sat there for a length of time that indicated to me that whoever was in the van was doing something other than trying to figure out where he was. I started down the driveway to see if I could assist whoever was in the van, when the van took off. I noticed that the van stopped at my neighbor's house about 300 yds away. I got in my truck and caught up with the van, which was occupied by a thirty-something man and woman. I asked if I could help them. They then explained what they were doing and showed me the hand-held unit they were using to record GPS locations of addresses.

    For those who have been incredulous over me referring to that as an intrusion, yes, it is an intrusion.
     
  4. JBnTX

    JBnTX Texas

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    What did you do that caused the men in black to target your house?
    Have you been hosting intergalactic keggers?

    ..
     
    #24 JBnTX, Feb 8, 2013
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2013
  5. I don't want to hang officers, that's another strawman. However LEOs are not pure as the wind driven snow, either. How about the ones that sprayed the pickup thinking it was Dorner, and instead, shot two innocent women. I'm sure their hearts were in the right place, but a screw-up of that magnitude is a hanging offense.
     
  6. Thank you for providing me with an indication as to what type of person you are.

    I make it a policy to ignore intellectual pissants.
     
  7. RussP

    Moderator

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    Thank you for answering that question, yet again, I asked:
    Thanks....
     
  8. The exception, for sure. "Rare" is a relative term, though. Nifty interactive map for reference:

    http://www.cato.org/raidmap

    Prepared by those commies at the Cato Institute. :whistling:

    [But yeah, the "GPS coordinates = invasion of privacy" thing is silly. And HEY, how about some opsec, for goodness' sake. You know AQ reads this forum and you go and reveal the thing about wrapping the house in foil!?]
     
    #28 tslex, Feb 8, 2013
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2013
  9. RussP

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    There's always a "However..." or a "But...".

    And do you believe those officers will not be held accountable under the law for their actions?
     
  10. This is the true truth and perhaps the greatest guarantor of liberty. It really helps me sleep at night.

    I worked BRIEFLY for the federal government 30+ years ago. The degree of disorganization and disorder boggled my mind. It's not that I don't think there may be some folks in DC who WANT to catalog every GPS coordinate so they can send mind-beams into my house when I try posting libertarian stuff on GT -- it's just that I think they're probably keeping too busy trying to get the right size toner cartridge for the copier.

    TJ said "That government is bets which governs least." We got lots of least.
     
  11. RussP

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    Where in the Cato information is the total number of warrants served? Like you said, that "rare" word needs definition.
     
  12. Don't disagree, Russ. Entirely qualitative, not quantitative.

    Not sure how "rare" would be quantified even with a measure against all warrants -- .01%? 0.1%? 1.0%

    I think the Cato study (which is a bit out of date) demonstrates that it falls into the "more than you might think" or the "far from unheard of" categories.

    Put it this way. I live in a really nice suburb of Miami. It happened twice in two years within a few miles of my house. One raid, the right address was MILES away in what amounts to a ghetto, instead of the million-dollar mini-mansion that got raided. Someone transposed SE or SW or something similar. Hard to imagine how it happened. But, it does.
     
  13. Do you believe that officers ever benefit from what is known as the "Blue Code of Silence"?

    Or another example

    http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2014235279_policeshooting16m.html

    Because it does not require a comparison. Rarity is quantified by frequency.
    Here, why don't you answer a question for a change? But it's going to be a tough one for you, because it is going to utterly refute the point you are trying to make.

    Do you think that automobile fatalities are rare?
     
  14. The part in bold made me laugh. And cry.

    We only have one functioning printer in our report writing room.

    There are two printers in the report writing room.
     
    #34 CAcop, Feb 8, 2013
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2013
  15. RussP

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    You do, you believe that very strongly. So what value would you give any answer I made? None...so no need to respond.
    His department ruled the shooting unjustified. They were going to fire him. He resigned before being fired.

    The coroners inquest jury had mixed findings about the case, non conclusive findings. The prosecutor made the decision to not file charges.

    Law enforcement ruled the shooting unjustified. The prosecutor would not prosecute. So law enforcement is to blame for prosecutor failure to prosecute based on the decisions of the coroner's inquest jurors.
    Strawman...this is about your claim that mistakes in warrant services are not rare.

    Show that they are not rare. Use frequency if you wish. How many occur per day? Per week? Per month? Per quarter?

    No one will disagree with you that even one erroneous service resulting in harm to an innocent is one too many. I doubt there is one department, agency, office that doesn't want there to be zero mistakes.

    You read about the errors, the mistakes. Others of us read those stories and then read the comprehensive evaluations and the changes made based on what was learned from those mistakes.
     
  16. But you have no problem with posing questions for me. Personally, I'm glad you are not answering, because it is becoming tedious to jump through the hoops you set up.

    Distrct Attorneys/Prosecutors are members of the law enforcement family.

    No, you want to use ratios to make your case that warrant service errors are rare. So, I am going to use the same criteria to make my case. Automobiles are used millions of times per day. Using a ratio of fatalities/times used, you could make the case that auto fatalities are rare.

    Furthermore, I went back to see how we got on this discussion. It all started when I said that there were "many instances" of warrant service errors, and JBnTx said that warrant service errors were "extremely rare".
     
    #36 Razorsharp, Feb 9, 2013
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2013
  17. Bren

    Bren NRA Life Member

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    Guess what, the government could have gone to walmart, before 2010, bought a $100 Garmin and punched in your address and it would take them straight to your house - at worst, they wasted money.

    Says the guy who thinks the government had to send people down his street, in 2010, to get the GPS coordinates for his house.:rofl:

    Everybody in America has the GPS coordinates for your house. I can find you with my iPhone.
     
    #37 Bren, Feb 9, 2013
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2013
  18. Which makes me question the official explaination of gathering that particular data. If it was wasn't really needed for the purpose they said, what purpose would it be needed for?

    I find it a little too convenient when those who question the motives of government, can be easily dismissed with the perjorative of "conspiracy theorist".

    When the Social Security Act was first being proposed, it was objected to because of the assigning of a number to everyone. The majority of people did not want an identifying number. The people's concerns were assuaged with the assurance that the number would never be used for identification.

    By today's standards, those who objected to the "identifying number" would be ridiculed as "conspiracy theorists".
     
  19. You're not very bright, are you?

    The government admits they did this.

    (Well, there's another one I can start ignoring.)
     
  20. RussP

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    So you do not disagree that regardless of any rational, logical, factual answer I would provide, you would give it no value. Thanks for proving my point.

    The answer to your original question is, unfortunately, yes. The problem exists as it does in many other professions. Coworkers cover for each others mistakes. People use authority to cover mistakes. People use professional status to cover their and others mistakes.

    The more public the profession, the more distinct the profession, the more limited the number in the profession, the more exaggerated the claims of abuse become. Publicity in the media and the repetition of those reports on social media, including blogs, news collecting sites, agenda driven sites, all contribute to this exaggeration. One incident recited a thousand times becomes multiple events to many who do not take the time to research and learn that there really was just one event.

    I don't imagine you talk to too many in law enforcement about this "Blue Wall" thing. If they trust you enough to talk, the conversation would be enlightening.

    Okay, there's your answer. Now, lets get back to the tedious jumping through the hoops.
    True, and we know that cases can be presented to inquest juries, grand juries, in ways and manners to elicit a desired outcome. It's true. I've witnessed it happen.

    Did you read about the disagreement within the inquest jury? That is in your linked article. Here is more about the jury. Jurors chosen in inquest into fatal shooting of woodcarver.

    What's interesting here is the judge ruled that the jury would not be told that the department had ruled the shooting unjustified and the police chief had ordered Birk to turn in his badge and weapon.

    Here is a detailed list of the jurors responses to questions put to them.
    The prosecutor "felt" that the inquest jury's opinion reflected the opinion a trial jury would have. Was he right? Maybe...maybe not, depending on whom you are listening to.

    Do I think he should have been tried in a court of his peers? I do not know. I didn't sit in the inquest hearing room listening to all the testimony. I know from personal experience that news reports are hardly repositories of the actual facts of courtroom proceedings, so what is presented by the media is suspect.
    Yes, I do want to focus exclusively on what you challenged. Good, you know how to do the math for automobiles. Apply that to warrant service errors.Thanks...
    Which you challenged with...
    ...your challenge continuing that specific path of discussion.
     

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