The new M4 chart is out.
https://spreadsheets.google.com/spr...akp2a3Y2NjMxTEE&single=true&gid=2&output=html
https://spreadsheets.google.com/spr...akp2a3Y2NjMxTEE&single=true&gid=2&output=html
Lots of truth here.This is why the folks really knowledgeable about the AR15 platform and its proper use avoid this site like the plague. And I wouldn't be surprised if the couple that do stop by on occasion where seriously considering not doing so anymore.
There's alot more to GlockTalk than just the Black Rifle Forum. Check out some other sections. You might enjoy yourself more.:dunno: Personally, I find GlockTalk helpful AND entertaining.:supergrin:Lots of truth here.
Not to lump myself into any category of knowledgeable persons but I find myself visiting less, posting less and have considered moving on completely. I have a genuine interest in helping new shooters or people who may be new to this platform to become educated owners and help better this hobby / sport etc... The sad thing is that there are those who post here who are doing no justice to this concept. Also the flat out spite or hate for other sites with a preponderance of industry / shooting professionals is overwhelming and the amount of sheer ignorance on this weapon in this forum is also overwhelming at times and this thread is a prime example of some members who don't know what they don't know, or refusing to learn out of pure spite.
The chart is what it is, to use or not use.
Most acknowledge that for a plinker there are many suitable choices that are not on the list that will give the owner a lifetime of pleasure.
Most will say that there are a few not on the list that can be suitable for self defense / duty use, but when your life is on the line, there are better choices for the same or perhaps less cost.
The majority of parts / testing procedures that meets Mil-Spec standards costs a company more money to produce that product. So what does that say about a company who charges as much or even more money for a product that uses lower quality parts and doesn't have the same quality of testing procedures? Who cares if you don't run your rifle hard enough for that to matter, but why spend more with a company that is just sticking it to their customers by having a much greater profit margin for lower quality parts and lower testing standards? That just sounds like stupidity to me. This has absolutely nothing to do with snobbery either, just pure common sense.
Rifle costs and quality of materials aside, some companies flat out suck with their customer service and being known for rifles having basic "issues" out of the box which could have been easily solved from the manufacturer standpoint during manufacture or quality control process.
While attempting to replicate or exceed Mil-Spec or TDP standards does not guarantee anything, it does show a commitment by a company to attempt to put out a high quality product and there is a huge likelihood that their product is indeed assembled better and will be a better performer over its lifespan. Anyone with a lick of knowledge about this weapon system understands the critical area's that can fail basically leaving you with a club. Not WILL fail but can fail. So any manufacturer that attempts to follow these standards are showing an attention to detail that can save the user their money or their life. This attention to detail generally equates to a company having their **** together as a company itself and that is the type of companies that I wish to support with my hard earned dollars.
I will also use the car example. A Kia and a Corvette will both get you from A to Z. But if they both cost the same or if the Kia costs more, I know which one I am buying every single time. PT Barnum understood the fool and his money concept all too well. Don't support the companies that would attempt to do the same to you.
Yep. Too many folks arguing emotion rather than science and math. Happens with all firearms, but it's tenfold with AR's.Oh yeah, THIS is why I stopped coming to the Black Rifle forum.
Oh well, at least I get to shoot my Noveske more during the summer months.
Your observation works the same both ways. I think it's difficult for some AR aficionados to understand that most AR owners don't need mil-spec. They should get it, since usually it doesn't cost much more, but they really don't need it.Yay! Time for people who don't shoot more than few times a year to get upset again because their rifle didn't rank well on the mil-spec comparison chart.
I still can't understand why someone satisfied with their rifle, for THEIR uses, seems to believe that's all everyone else needs. As if it were unfathomable that others may require a higher standard for their applications or want more for their money.
...winning...I think some folks are missing the point. Yes lower end AR's are perfectly fine for the majority of enthusiasts. What is odd or funny or hard to understand is why would anyone choose between 2 guns that are the same price...but choose the one with lower quality parts or less features?
"key word...for the same price!!!!"
So let me wrap my brain around this... some guys here thinks its wise for me to spend $900 on an AR that doesnt have 4150CMV steel, no M4 feed ramps, 1/9 twist rate, commercial spec parts and parts batch tested?
Yes there are AR's out there that come with less and you pay more for it...I think that is the real issue here. Not gun snobery.
You omitted S&W.That's because some companies (like Bushmaster, DPMS, and Olympic Arms) want nothing to do with it. That should tell you something about those companies.
Using that logic and the chart then you shouldn't buy anything but a Spikes Tactical. It has all the boxes checked and is over $300 less then Colt of BCM.I will also use the car example. A Kia and a Corvette will both get you from A to Z. But if they both cost the same or if the Kia costs more, I know which one I am buying every single time. PT Barnum understood the fool and his money concept all too well. Don't support the companies that would attempt to do the same to you.
This is one the issues I see with following the chart too closely or holding it up as the be all, end all. If it were paired with factory tours by Rob or independent testing of materials or sampling of various makers by going to the local gunstore and tearing apart the guns without tipping off the makers.Using that logic and the chart then you shouldn't buy anything but a Spikes Tactical. It has all the boxes checked and is over $300 less then Colt of BCM.
If Spikes can do the same thing for $300 less why should anyone support Colt, BCM, or Noveske? Aren't they just playing us for fools and charging and extra $300 for the same thing?
My one big gripe about the chart is that it is based solely on a survey sent to a manufacturer. How do we know that Colt, BCM, or Spikes aren't lying to us?
I mean I could make a VaFish M4 and tell you that it meets all those specs, other then a few obvious ones like staking and extractor inserts how would you know?
Even if you want documentation you don't think I can come up with an image of a piece of paper that says at some point I bought some material that meets the specifications?
You pick up a bolt that has MPT stamped on it how do you know it's not some pot metal piece of crap from China?
When is someone going to start cutting these things up and doing an analysis of the metal?
First, I am not a "average" recreational shooter. I have put quite a few rounds down range, with LMT, BCM, OLY and DPMS. Bushmaster as well. That isnt any bolt out of my rifles. Once when I didnt pay for ammo, I (and 3 others) put about 3000 rounds each downrange in DPMS A2 rifles w/ Gov't profile barrels. Not once did they malf in any way with the M-193 we were issued. My first was an OLY Plinker. Still running tru and reliable thousands of rounds later.Durable eh?
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d13/drshame/BrokenBolt.jpg?t=1255360507
A few points:
Mil-spec doesn't mean lowest bidder, it doesn't mean its ****, it doesn't mean any of that. Milspec is an adherence to a standard. The standard being the TDP. Barrel and bolt steel, HP/MPI, 1:7 twist, h-buffers, etc. Anyone who thinks milspec is lowest bidder crap is an uneducated idiot. Period.
If a rifle is not "milspec", meaning they are not adhering to the same standards that has worked for the M16 rifle for 40 years....what standards ARE they using?
DPMS will work for any AR owner just fine if you go to the range and put a box or two of ammo through it before hunting season. No one can, nor should, argue that. However, no one should argue that a DPMS would handle large amounts of fire in a training environment either. They're just not built for that, it should be evidenced by their lack of gas key and castle nut staking alone.
Lastly, why the hell would anyone spend $1000 on a Bushmaster XM15-E2S when they could buy a complete LMT Defender 2000 Lower for $350 and a BCM upper for $650?
I hope to not actually see a poster who says that Bushmaster is better quality than BCM. If its not, why wouldn't you get the best?
I agreed I was banned for life for calling a Marine a Devil Dog, what a joke of a forum and what close minded people to not accept other points of view on firearms. M4 is the furthest thing from information anyone can recieve.Well since you can't even discuss any AR that doesn't meet their MIL SPEC dream requirements on M4.net If you do they will suspend you ASAP ! The closest "Mil Spec" Comercial AR you can buy is a Colt! Everyone else is a Posser! And your paying for the Name! :wavey:
+1 smartest thing I have read yet!Yay! Time for people who don't shoot more than few times a year to get upset again because their rifle didn't rank well on the mil-spec comparison chart.
I still can't understand why someone satisfied with their rifle, for THEIR uses, seems to believe that's all everyone else needs. As if it were unfathomable that others may require a higher standard for their applications or want more for their money.
Yep. Too many folks arguing emotion rather than science and math. Happens with all firearms, but it's tenfold with AR's.
That's because DD is typically used when addressing someone junior to you, and when they screwed up.I agreed I was banned for life for calling a Marine a Devil Dog, what a joke of a forum and what close minded people to not accept other points of view on firearms. M4 is the furthest thing from information anyone can recieve.
What is your experience w/ failures of commercial grade M4s/AR15s as compared to mil-spec M4s/AR15s? Have you found one is more prone to failure than the other?rich52us
Mil-Spec is a standard used to be able to sell a product to the Government under a certain contract! In the case of the M16/M4 contract the TDP! Thats all it is nothing more nothing less! Dosen't mean the product are better then normal commercial grade parts just that it meets the contracted spec's! I don't know or have ever heard of any firearm manufacture making substandard parts for firearms! Good way to catch a lawsuit and be put out of business! Have bad parts been sold -yep. Will Milspec parts fail yep seen it all the time in the Aircraft repair industry . I can't count the number of bad Mil-Spec parts that I seen bad right from the factory in 24 years in the USAF!:whistling: