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The new chart is out...

19K views 188 replies 61 participants last post by  bmoore 
#1 ·
#77 · (Edited)
What's tacos and pizzas have to do with this? :dunno:

It's an analogy. (Look up what it means.)
Pizza Hut and Taco Bell are owned by the same company.

Did any of you stop to think that there just may be legal reasons
for a manufacturer to NOT want to be on that list?

You can't just automatically assume they have something to hide
or have an inferior product.

In reality the term "mil-spec" doesn't mean diddly squat.

There's no such thing as a "mil-spec" civilian AR-15 type rifle.
Never has been and probably never will be.
 
#78 ·
It's an analogy. (Look up what it means.)
Pizza Hut and Taco Bell are owned by the same company.

Did any of you stop to think that there just may be legal reasons
for a manufacturer to NOT want to be on that list?

You can't just automatically assume they have something to hide
or have an inferior product.

In reality the term "mil-spec" doesn't mean diddly squat.
Only just means more $$$ for the product.
 
#79 ·
:cool:

This is as pertains to commercially produced M4 type rifles. Applies to others as well. This is a link to the EOF (Explanation of Features) by rob_s, creator of "the chart".

https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pwswheghNQsEuEhjFwPrgTA#gid=2



.
Thanks for the information guys. Its nice to know which companies are trying to adhere to the standards. As long as the data in the chart is accurate it is going to be helpful to someone that is planning on making a purchase. Sometimes it just boils down to a persons budget when they make a purchase or brand preference.
 
#81 ·
Thanks for the information guys. Its nice to know which companies are trying to adhere to the standards. As long as the data in the chart is accurate it is going to be helpful to someone that is planning on making a purchase. Sometimes it just boils down to a persons budget when they make a purchase or brand preference.
The info used is straight from the manufacturer.

The cool thing is you can find ARs that surpass these standards for less than ones from manufacturers playing politician (ducking and dodging the questions).
 
#82 ·
Only just means more $$$ for the product.

You have said this more than once...do you have evidence of this? Reality is, you can put together a top quality rifle that meets or beats TPD for about the same money as you can a commercial grade run of the mill rifle.

The only snobbery I am seeing here today is from the "anti-charters."
 
#83 ·
I would like to add that my Mosin is also 100% mil-spec.
 
#84 ·
the irony is overwhelming :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
I did read the entire thread, thats why I posted what I did.
I assume you are trying to attract attention to your ignorance. (ignorance=uneducated, not stupid [look them up in on www.dictionary.com])
good job. :wavey:
your ignorance is overwhelming, even for here.
you should do as I suggested he do, you can fondle your Spikes while doing so, its all good to me, I dont care. :tongueout:
understand what the TDP and NSN are, you better hurry while you can still edit your post :yawn:
What ignorance are you referring to? On what topic? And if you had read the entire thread, you would have seen where G21FAN had owned several ARs, he's hardly a noob that you need to educate. All I was saying was that you're being rude, trying to prove something to yourself by being condescending to others. Please stop trying to be the AR Yoda. No one is interested in what you have to say because of how you say it. Go join the AR GATE forum, maybe you can prove yourself to yourself there.

You may think you know ARs, but what you don't know is people, and how to interact with them.
 
#85 · (Edited)
And it isn't a pissing match of brands, started out on the subject of snobbery about the brands.

And mil-spec snobbery has yet to prove why the snobbery is warranted.

Dont care about the brand, DPMS and Oly, all were reliable and accurate and durable.
Durable eh?

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d13/drshame/BrokenBolt.jpg?t=1255360507



A few points:

Mil-spec doesn't mean lowest bidder, it doesn't mean its ****, it doesn't mean any of that. Milspec is an adherence to a standard. The standard being the TDP. Barrel and bolt steel, HP/MPI, 1:7 twist, h-buffers, etc. Anyone who thinks milspec is lowest bidder crap is an uneducated idiot. Period.

If a rifle is not "milspec", meaning they are not adhering to the same standards that has worked for the M16 rifle for 40 years....what standards ARE they using?

DPMS will work for any AR owner just fine if you go to the range and put a box or two of ammo through it before hunting season. No one can, nor should, argue that. However, no one should argue that a DPMS would handle large amounts of fire in a training environment either. They're just not built for that, it should be evidenced by their lack of gas key and castle nut staking alone.

Lastly, why the hell would anyone spend $1000 on a Bushmaster XM15-E2S when they could buy a complete LMT Defender 2000 Lower for $350 and a BCM upper for $650?

I hope to not actually see a poster who says that Bushmaster is better quality than BCM. If its not, why wouldn't you get the best?
 
#86 ·
Durable eh?

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d13/drshame/BrokenBolt.jpg?t=1255360507



A few points:

Mil-spec doesn't mean lowest bidder, it doesn't mean its ****, it doesn't mean any of that. Milspec is an adherence to a standard. The standard being the TDP. Barrel and bolt steel, HP/MPI, 1:7 twist, h-buffers, etc. Anyone who thinks milspec is lowest bidder crap is an IDIOT. Period.

DPMS will work for any AR owner just fine if you go to the range and put a box or two of ammo through it before hunting season. No one can, nor should, argue that. However, no one should argue that a DPMS would handle large amounts of fire in a training environment either. They're just not built for that, it should be evidenced by their lack of gas key and castle nut staking alone.

Lastly, why the hell would anyone spend $1000 on a Bushmaster XM15-E2S when they could buy a complete LMT Defender 2000 Lower for $350 and a BCM upper for $650?

I hope to not actually see a poster who says that Bushmaster is better quality than BCM. If its not, why wouldn't you get the best?
You have excellent points. For the same (or a little more) money, one can get a mil-spec AR for the price of a non-milspec, which is really the reason for the existence of The Chart. What some here are trying to say is that many recreational shooters just don't care to educate themselves on ARs before making their purchase, and don't shoot enough for mil-spec to matter. Yes, there are tons of great ARs out there that are milspec, but those manufacturers don't mass-market themselves like Bushmaster and others, so they're small-time players in the market.

Most shooters will be happy with a Bushmaster, DPMS, yadda-yadda, because they don't run them that hard and don't care/know about milspec.
 
#87 ·
I agree, I have long said to people that if your goal is to have cool rifle, shoot a few boxes of ammo a year, and want to show it to your buddies at cookouts, then pick out whatever rifle catches your eye....if you want something to run hard day in, day out, then buy the stuff that SMEs buy.
 
#88 · (Edited)
I agree, I have long said to people that if your goal is to have cool rifle, shoot a few boxes of ammo a year, and want to show it to your buddies at cookouts, then pick out whatever rifle catches your eye....if you want something to run hard day in, day out, then buy the stuff that SMEs buy.
Think of the numbers involved. There's about 80 million civilian gun owners in this country. If 1/8 of them own an AR, that's about 10 million civilian AR owners. If my numbers are a bit off, there is absolutely no doubt that someone will correct me, so let's just roll with that last number for now.

Of the 10 or so million AR owners in this country, how many of them really get out shooting that much, say once a month or more? I don't have any hard facts, but I'd guess around 1 in 10 or 1 in 12. I think the vast majority of AR owners (and firearms owners in general) shoot very little, like 1-2 times a year.

So everyone here needs to take a deep breath and consider that mass-produced, non-milspec ARs are fine for the vast majority of shooters. They'll never get run long or hard enough for their weaknesses to become apparent. If CEOs from companies like DPMS and Bushmaster were to read this thread, they'd laugh their friggin' heads off all the way to the bank.

And for those of you here that represent the small group of AR owners that are true enthusiasts. Those who absolutely need to tell everyone else what they should buy, and exactly why, to the point where you just can't stop yourself from being concescending while you do it.....you know, the true AR nerds. Sit down and pour yourselves a nice, cool, tall glass of shut the **** up. Some of us have lives outside of shooting ARs, and are completely tired of listening to 5 or 6 AR nerds ruin this forum.
 
#89 ·
There are a LOT of threads here and on other boards where people ASK what AR to buy, most of these by people who know little or nothing about the subject, yet you criticize those who provide facts and opinions when asked to provide them...I guess you hate Consumer Reports a lot.
 
#90 ·
If CEOs from companies like DPMS and Bushmaster were to read this thread, they'd laugh their friggin' heads off all the way to the bank.
Yeah because of the ill informed and thick headed who keep buying their product contrary to the large amounts of negative info and proof available to the consumer.


"Need" is a good point. Most don't need a quality AR for the few boxes of ammo they send down range each year. But why spend as much or more for less?

Id rather have more than I need than be stranded at the range w/ a broken firearm because I asked a little to much of it.
 
#91 · (Edited)
There are a LOT of threads here and on other boards where people ASK what AR to buy, most of these by people who know little or nothing about the subject, yet you criticize those who provide facts and opinions when asked to provide them...I guess you hate Consumer Reports a lot.
No, I absolutely do not criticize people when they answer asked questions, that's the entire reason for forms like this, and purchasing aids like The Chart. What is really starting to grind my gears is a select few posters here who get rude and condescending when people express their opinions on topics, instead of simply having a normal, point-for-point discussion. And it's the AR nerds here that are the culprits, and they are the reason why this forum sucks.

There's a small group here who think that if you aren't Military, LEO or gone to a training course, you should not voice an opinion on any topics here, and it's getting very tiresome. These same schmucks are the same ones who just can't figure out that the VAST MAJORITY of AR owners aren't like them, and won't listen to any views from non-nerdoidal AR owners. Non-nerd AR owners come here for a few threads looking for good converstaion, get absolutely lambasted by the AR nerds, and then leave for friendlier forums with lower nasty-nerd quotients.
 
#92 ·
Yeah because of the ill informed and thick headed who keep buying their product contrary to the large amounts of negative info and proof available to the consumer.


"Need" is a good point. Most don't need a quality AR for the few boxes of ammo they send down range each year. But why spend as much or more for less?

Id rather have more than I need than be stranded at the range w/ a broken firearm because I asked a little to much of it.
You're right.
 
#93 ·
No, I absolutely do not criticize people when they answer asked questions, that's the entire reason for forms like this, and purchasing aids like The Chart. What is really starting to grind my gears is a select few posters here who get rude and condescending when people express their opinions on topics, instead of simply having a normal, point-for-point discussion. And it's the AR nerds here that are the culprits, and they are the reason why this forum sucks.

There's a small group here who think that if you aren't Military, LEO or gone to a training course, you should not voice an opinion on any topics here, and it's getting very tiresome. These same schmucks are the same ones who just can't figure out that the VASR MAJORITY of AR owners aren't like them, and won't listen to any views from non-nerdoidal AR owners.

Now that you are narrowing down your animosity to the very small group it should be targeted at, perhaps we can get back to business. Most of this thread has consisted of bashing many posters as a whole, and posting a lot of "just as good" or "good enough" opinion on ARs, which is ironic because as you say, the chart represents a collection of facts, nothing more, nothing less. I tend to ignore the condescending posters on BOTH sides of this issue.
 
#94 · (Edited)
Now that you are narrowing down your animosity to the very small group it should be targeted at, perhaps we can get back to business. Most of this thread has consisted of bashing many posters as a whole, and posting a lot of "just as good" or "good enough" opinion on ARs, which is ironic because as you say, the chart represents a collection of facts, nothing more, nothing less. I tend to ignore the condescending posters on BOTH sides of this issue.
There's really no issue. The Chart is a great buying tool. And there absolutely is "good enough", it's just different for everyone. I think G21FAN is just trying to say that not everyone needs milspec, and people can disagree with helpful facts instead of condescending crap.
 
#95 ·
glock031


"Not many poster bragging about their DPMS around here that i've noticed. "


Well then let me be the first! My other AR that I stated was dispised by the M4 crowd and can't be discussed over there with out being banned or suspended from the forum.
It's a 16" DPMS Carbine HBAR A2 with an AT lower! Total price for the gun $700 and some change! Brand new upper on the used AT lower! It is very accurate, totally reliable and has went bang every time! Now what more can one ask for! The Chamber didn't need to be reamed as they claim all DPMS rifles do, it has the Covetted M4 feed ramps, Nor was the FSB canted like they claim all DPMS rifles are, it is a 1:9" which is blastfomy-got to have a 1:7" , cant take them to a Carbine class cause they will fail the first round etc.:rofl:
 
#97 ·
Another thing I'd like to point out is that the mentality at M4C is based around the idea that the weapon will be needed on a 2 way range.

No one here would advocate bringing a Kia to a drag racing event, which is why they don't tolerate bringing a DPMS to a gunfight.
 
#99 ·
Another thing I'd like to point out is that the mentality at M4C is based around the idea that the weapon will be needed on a 2 way range.

No one here would advocate bringing a Kia to a drag racing event, which is why they don't tolerate bringing a DPMS to a gunfight.
Good point.
But naming their forum "AR General Discussion" seems to undermind their intentions if infact they want to be the "M4 Combat ready disussion" forum.
 
#100 ·
That's because some companies (like Bushmaster, DPMS, and Olympic Arms) want nothing to do with it. That should tell you something about those companies.
Thats the whole point it doesn't tell you anything about those companies, so it means nothing.:wavey:
 
#101 ·
Im going to assign you some homework.
please stay in your lane until you've done it.
based on most of your post, you're pretty green about AR/M4's.

read about: TDP & NSN.

understand mil-spec = minimum standards. If a manufacturer cannot even met the minimum, why waste $$ on them ?
I get what you're saying, but just because something has an NSN doesn't mean its the absolute best. Lots of things have them, for instance 7310011331784 is the NSN for a corn dog fryer. 6510012549639 is for tampons. Most the time if something has a NSN it means that item probably isn't a piece of crap. But even that is iffy, the hand tools that you get through the stock system are total crap and you are usually better off buying something off the shelf at Home Depot.
 
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