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The 10mm Conundrum

Discussion in 'The 10 Ring' started by mag360, Sep 13, 2013.

  1. mag360


    Feb 19, 2012
    I think what I am starting to realize is what I will call the 10mm conundrum, and I'll try to sum it up as best as possible. This is relevant at very close distances (within 10 yards self defense shooting and likely most duty shooting situations) as when you open up the distance that 1261fps 200gr xtp may only be doing 1100 at impact making it perfect for hunting.

    What we have been seeing is that all this extra speed and showmanship of muzzle energy is getting us nowhere. We are increasing our recoil, muzzle flash and for many folks reducing shot split times on target without an increase in lethality.

    The hornady custom ammo 200gr XTP moving at 1083fps is an outstanding hunting bullet, deep penetration, mild expansion of just about .54 source gun classifieds

    crank that same bullet to 1261fps and it loses 7" of penetration and expands to .675 (tnoutdoors9)

    What else has numbers that are damn near identical to that?

    124gr +p HST fired from a 4.2-4.5" barrel pocketgunsandgear several different barrel lengths with and without denim. out of the 4.2" barrel it expanded .650" going 1157fps which is 369fpe and penetrated 18"

    For comparison the 180gr XTP hornady custom #9126 factory load went 16" through denim and the same clear ballistics gel and expanded to .652 but look what happened to the 155gr XTP, not enough penetration.

    This is why my glock 26 EDC (99.99 % of the time) load is 147gr HST or 124gr +P HST. From our best researchers Fackler and DocGKR they have said pistol calibers do not exhibit any type of "hydrostatic shock", which means all we can look at is expansion and penetration. If you have the SAME EXACT penetration and expansion, but can do so with hardly any muzzle flash, flip, and no sonic boom which load would you want?

    If I had to load my G20SF right now for self defense shooting and I could pick ANY load I've seen tested or recovered from a hunt, it would be the 180gr factory XTP load, which I can't even find in stock LOL (and its a bullet that is what 20 years old in design, imagine a true 10mm HST!). The heavier 180gr gives the bullet greater sectional density so it will hold together better after hitting bone than say a 124gr or 147gr, but still has reasonable expansion.

    I am eager to see how the 175gr critical duty 10mm does, at the 40 s&w speeds the bullet was awful, no better than a critical duty 9mm, which was much worse than the HST 147gr (pistol forum, docgkr) new service caliber handgun tests. (fixed link)

    At the upper end of pressure in the 10mm case it seems like 200gr or 220gr bonded jhps are what we need if taking full advantage of the case capacity. I will keep begging Speer/ATK and Winchester to come up with a real 10mm load.

    Input is greatly appreciated.
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2013
  2. Angry Fist

    Angry Fist Dehumanizer® Lifetime Member

    Dec 30, 2009
    Hellbilly Hill
    You just blew my mind, but I'll stick with my UA Gold Dots with a mag dump in the .16 to .17 range per shot.

    I have never been in a gun fight, but if I was, I'd likely be clicking till empty. That load is the best I've tried.

    The XTP is a little harder to open up than other bullets, I thought, no?
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2013

  3. arushus

    arushus Biggest Member

    Jul 22, 2011
    NE Oklahoma
    I know exactly what youre talking about. Looking at some bullet stats the difference between regular pressure ammo and +p isnt worth using the +p load. A lot of times the expansion numbers are the same but the +p round will penetrate three or four inches less than the regular pressure round, which points to more damage being done and more energy being dumped through the hydrostatic shock. But as you just said, hydrostatic shock doesnt contribute anything more than marginal damage at best.
  4. arushus

    arushus Biggest Member

    Jul 22, 2011
    NE Oklahoma
    I will add that the +p loads are worth it in shorter barrels to get the velocity up to what it should be.
  5. G29SFWTF


    Aug 3, 2012
    I was thinking about this the other day and went searching for accounts of people who had been shot with a handgun. A surprising number say "I didn't even know I'd been shot". Later of course there is impact from bleeding and pain but using a handgun for defense is all about right now, not later.

    It's not scientific and I understand that handgun velocities are not enough for hydrostatic shock damage but I wonder about the 'punch factor' so to speak--the psychological impact of feeling and knowing you are shot surely has some value when you want the bad guy off of you right now.
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2013
  6. SDGlock23

    SDGlock23 Glockoholic

    I guess one of my big issues is that too many focus on energy without realizing that too often they're sacrificing penetration in order to get more energy, which isn't really helping them. Of course you have to have a certain amount of it, but too much energy in a bullet not designed to withstand it yields less penetration and bullet fatigue/failure to some degree or another.

    I've seen video of a deer shot with a .50 BMG and it just ran off. Of course it was a dead deer running but the huge energy of the .50 didn't cause it to drop. I've seen deer drop like a sack of spuds when hit with a .45 ACP. Anyone would agree there's a huge energy difference between the two yet the .45, in this example, seemed to be more effective.

    Then people chime in about how they think an extra 100-200 ft-lbs of energy in a handgun is "substantial"...ummmm no it isn't. Well at least up to a point it isn't, then after than it means little IMHO. I really like my 10mm, but pushing to the max isn't always a better option, as handguns kill from penetration and at times slower velocity penetrates better.

    I have a nice load that will shoot a 180gr XTP to just over 1350 fps from my G20 (Hornady rates the 180gr XTP to 1450 fps), or I can run the same bullet to 1200 fps in my G23 which I know cuts deep and expands very nicely, and both will kill any deer in the woods just fine.
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2013
  7. nickE10mm

    nickE10mm F.S.F.O.S.

    Apr 13, 2004
    Wichita, KS
    Yep, what we've been saying: we need real 10mm bullets. Designed for the extra speed.
  8. Andrew Wiggin

    Andrew Wiggin

    Dec 15, 2011
    The biggest strength of the 10mm in my opinion is versatility, not just raw power. I agree that for personal defense, you can get terminal results that are nearly as good with a low power 10mm load or 9mm or .45 ACP. However, it's also worth noting that the XTP isn't known for wide expansion.

    When other premium bullets are used in at 165-180 gr, the results are substantially different.

    The 180 gr HST at 1,222 got an average expansion value of 0.778" and 14.4" penetration.

    The 180 gr Golden Saber at 1,153 got 0.821" and 13.7" or 13.8"

    The 165 gr Gold Dot at 1,310 got 0.808" and 12".

    Another neat thing about the 10mm is the velocity seems to be enough to initiate expansion through denim in even poorly designed, generic JHP.

    I don't think you should look at it as the death ray in my sig line but rather a versatile tool that can give you a lot of things that other handguns and calibers can do. Like a Swiss Army gun.
  9. s0nspark

    s0nspark Talk is cheap!

    Jul 3, 2009
    The Old North State
    The versatility is what sold me on 10mm.

    The broad spectrum of use cases that the 10mm can cover with the right loading puts it in a class above all other pistol calibers. Then factor in all of the caliber conversions one can have with a 10mm Glock... and the fact that the larger framed Glocks shoot better for those of use with monkey hands LOL

    So, sure... what matters are the end results, but that isn't always the whole story ;-)
  10. What concerns me with the slower bullets is the possibility of hitting bone, especially the skull of a larger animal.

    In other words, the Hornady 200 grain XTP at ~1050 fps expands less and penetrates deeper into tissue. The Underwood load at 1250+ expanded more and penetrated 7 inches less into gel. Now, if I were being charged by a large wild animal and I were to by luck achieve a skull hit, I think I would want the faster 200 grain XTP.

    What you gain in one area you lose in another, and vice versa.
  11. Interesting perspective on the ballistic realities, but you've already solved the Kobayashi Maru conundrum at least until they make a "real" 10mm load. The G26 with your choice of Federal HST is going to expand and penetrate making it a proper choice for CC.

    For hunting or woods defense the G20 with 220gr hardcast or 200gr XTP's is a good solution depending on if your goal is to preserve protein or your backside. It's just a matter of picking the right tool for the job.
  12. ctious


    Dec 12, 2011
    For a real 10mm bullet we have solved that on cast bullet forum. Oreo and a bunch of us designed what I believe to be the best 10mm bullet out there. I have shot deer with it. We have done accuracy tests. We have done penatration tests. It's perfect. The mold came in 200 gr or 190 gr. It had pin options for deep hp. Shallow hp and flat nose. I have come to love the shallow hp. Being you cast yourself u can male the bullet as hard or soft as u want. I have personnaly shot these from super light to full nuke and then some.
  13. Andrew Wiggin

    Andrew Wiggin

    Dec 15, 2011
    can you post a link for the mold?
  14. nickE10mm

    nickE10mm F.S.F.O.S.

    Apr 13, 2004
    Wichita, KS
    Not only is CAST the best material choice but Mihec makes THE single best moulds available ANYWHERE.

    I will own one someday if Miha has any left in February.
  15. Bongo Boy

    Bongo Boy

    Jan 11, 2012
    Colorado USA
    It's definitely a sweet bullet--I've shot about 1,000 of then so far, all at paper. I don't concern myself too much with what bullet is in the gun...for SD I load XTPs and worry far more about whether I'll see the threat before it sees me and if I'm sharp enough to find cover without tripping over something.

    The brass molds from Slovenia ARE a real pleasure to use, I can say that. I like the full Monty hollow looks cool.
  16. 0reo


    Jun 19, 2009
    The shallow hp shape was something I saw on a 357sig gold dot (wide, shallow cone) which is also a high velocity pistol round like the 10mm. Its a good design that is especially well suited to cast boolits. The deep hp is also a take off of the 180gr gold dot but it's a little gratuitous in a cast boolit, imo.

    The advantage with cast boolits is the ability to adjust the expansion properties by altering the alloy. With a little experimentation you can do anything that needs to be done with a 10mm/40sw, and do it well using this boolit.

    The 200/190gr group buy is completed but there's a good chance Miha still has some molds in stock. I haven't heard of anyone wanting to buy being turned away yet. If you want one send "Mihec" a PM over on cast boolits forums. The time to buy is now. He may or may not ever do another production run.

    There is a 170gr and 150gr version of this same boolit however, and the group buy is still taking orders. This run features two new HP pin designs that are expected to be compatible with the 200/190gr molds.
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2013
  17. Andrew Wiggin

    Andrew Wiggin

    Dec 15, 2011
    Hey, just a heads up, in case you didn't see it already. I posted a gelatin test of the Mihec bullet with the 195 gr shallow pin.