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Survey: Iron sights

Discussion in 'Black Rifle Forum' started by TangoFoxtrot, Oct 7, 2012.

  1. mjkeat

    mjkeat

    3,447
    3
    Jun 17, 2009
    Midwest
    I actually am a very attractive guy. It works well w/ the ladies. Rugged and attractive. Big hands. Size 13 shoe. Golden. Cha-Ching!
     
  2. M&P15T

    M&P15T Beard One

    21,837
    3,867
    Apr 7, 2011
    Arlington, VA.
    Let's switch to PMs, we don't need to continue hi-jacking threads we're hopping back and forth between.
     


  3. mjkeat

    mjkeat

    3,447
    3
    Jun 17, 2009
    Midwest
    I'll end this now as the wine is gone and my steak is an ancient memory.

    You have no idea of what you are talking about. People try to help you and others by pointing you in the right direction. The thing is despite the masses telling you are wrong you insist on arguing. You argue w/ guys who have outrageous amounts of hands on experience. When they correct you you go on a strawman fallacy trying to detract from their knowledge. It would be much easier if you just listened and sought the instruction you need. You would understand the things being talked about and not feel like one of the kids at the kiddy table during XMas dinner.

    We all go through it. I work w/ guys who can run a handgun like crazy. I don't talk ****, I listen. My old boss was a trainer for Triple Canopy, I was all ears. I didn't take it personal that they knew more than me. I took it as a godsend and a challenge as well as a great opportunity to better myself. Pride is good but don't let it get in the way.

    Take it or leave it.

    Done.
     
  4. surf

    surf

    1,019
    4
    Jul 7, 2010
    I agree 100% and it is a big philosophy in my teaching and curriculum. I mostly teach guys who have earned or proven themselves to be where they are at. They are top notch shooters, however I always break them down to irons and a rapid progression of revisiting fundamentals in a correct progression. 99.9% have always become tremendously better shooters as their training progresses into advanced shooting courses.

    I agree and I am sure you understand this, but for others reading there is much more than just cheek weld that can be benefited from training irons first. Much much more and I am not talking about just advanced shooters, but anyone even recreational shooters.


    Yep, just like a shotgun. Point and shoot, no aiming needed. I don't think someone who does not even have a solid grasp on basic marksmanship fundamentals, say not knowing how to use irons effectively, should be relied upon with their lives to be able to do any type of reflexive fire techniques without quality training and practice.

    Agreed

    With 23 years scraping up the mess, I will say that the majority of people who are/were victims of violent crime (outside of criminals) never thought it would happen to them or that the need to prepare was not even close to a priority in their life. Fatal mistake for many of them.

    There are far far more stories of people who are statistics on the negative end of the scale than those who are successful at defending themselves. Preparedness is something that increases your odds of success and as a firearm owner who keeps a weapon in the home for defense proper training should go hand in hand. I am not talking ninja courses, but a good solid basic course. And no, I don't say that it needs to be an AR. Not in the least.
     
  5. mingaa

    mingaa

    835
    1
    Dec 3, 2011
    St. Louis, MO
    1 AR - 1-4 scope with 45* BUIS and switch between the two as needed - 3-gun style.
     
  6. Warp

    Warp ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

    16,304
    296
    Jul 31, 2005
    Atlanta
    So where were you when you were robbed??


    Pro Tip: If somebody broke into your house when nobody was there, it was not a robbery
     
  7. M&P15T

    M&P15T Beard One

    21,837
    3,867
    Apr 7, 2011
    Arlington, VA.
    You're right. I should have told the police that I wasn't robbed, since I wasn't there. Seems they thought I had been, since most of my stuff was gone.

    Semantics is a beautiful thing.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2012
  8. themighty9mm

    themighty9mm

    3,096
    5
    Sep 19, 2008
    MO
    De ja Vue.
    Lol A friend of mine and I just had almost this exact same conversation at work today. Only he played mp15t, and I played mjkeat. I am not in the army but do undertand how serious a HD situation can be.

    He had it all figured out. I told him something along the lines of. You have never ever been in that situation. Nor have I. You dont know what you dont know. Why just hope for the best. When you have every oportunity to be the best you could and increase your odds 10 fold. His basic response was very similar the MP15's. No matter the situation within his own house he won. He knows the layout and has an advantage and so on and so forth.

    I'd go on about assume anything is possible and plan for the worst. He'd tell me abot some kid who shot a guy in the arm and the hobo ran away. I went on about statistically in combat you fall back to what you are best at, and how he was not good at much shooting wise (its the truth, I have seen this guy shoot).

    Then he would come back with he was good enough to defend himself and how he could hit what he was aiming at. I would point out, it was usually within 7 yards and with a rifle and no stress even in the slightest. Add in stress/ fear and all the goes with it, and his odds of hitting even a human size target at close range were small. Then I would point out cops, and how they often miss even at close range, under real live fire. I also pointed out a few timed game of shooting tic tac toe another buddy of mine, and I did. Granted the targets were much smaller. But even with a recreational mindset and a tiny itty bitty bit of stress of time. Even at 7 yards my buddy often found himself not even close to paper. I do have a bit more shooting experience than him (it was a very unfair advantage as he has only been shooting a handfull of times ever. But like the first friend before the tic tac toe game. No matter the situation he was on top of it. After a few friendly games it was a real eye opener for him. and how even at very close range how far he could miss. Even with lack of experience, that guy is not the worst shot ever.
    Then my friend (whom the conversation started with) would come back with some random guy who won a gun fight by a wing and a prayer.

    It always came back down to why not take it more seriously? Listen to guys who have been there done that, got the T shirt and wrote the book. Chances are they know much much more than him or me. He's still at the point of he will always win the gunfight. Its unrealistic and to me sad.

    I swear it was this exact same conversation. Thats funny. To me SD/HD is not a game, to him COD is telling the truth. And he was always the champ in his own mind. Any HD/SD should be taken 100% as serious as any other combat. It may only last a couple minuets or less. But during that time (if it ever happens) you are at war and it should be taken as such.

    And in 2012 scenarios of the type, home invasion, mass shootings, burgerlary. Due to media, job loss, and just screwed up people in general. Chances are more and more likely than ever before. Its not a game, its you, and your families lives. Why assume you are the best, when you know damn well you arnt. And when opportunites to be better are so available, why not use that resource(s).

    I think we are gonna go shooting this weekend and play some tic tac toe to give him a better understanding of reality. The only good point he made is it doesnt happen to him everyday. Fair enough and true.
    And for most dedicating life to being a better shooter is not realistic. However, instead of just goofing off 100% of the time at the range. And in your own mind being the best thing since beer. Why not take the information others give, use it and apply it and seek out more. It doesnt mean you have to dedicate your life to it. But at least take it as serious as you would driving your car with a child inside. Use appropriate precautions, be smart, be safe, and be somewhat skilled. You had to get the basics before taking your DL test. Same with HD/SD. Life dedication? No but something to strive to be continuously better at.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2012
  9. Warp

    Warp ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

    16,304
    296
    Jul 31, 2005
    Atlanta
    The proper definition of terms is pivotal to having a meaningful conversation.

    Burglary is not robbery. They are two distinctly different things.

    If your house was broken into while you were gone, and nobody else (besides the burglar(s)) was there, a burglary was committed. Not a robbery.

    Given that this is a firearms forum and we are talking about self defense, it is pretty important to be able to differentiate between these.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2012
  10. mjkeat

    mjkeat

    3,447
    3
    Jun 17, 2009
    Midwest
    Why are people still talking after post #164?

    MP15T, this is exactly what I am talking about. A guy who trains guys lightyears ahead of any of us speaks and yet you continue.
     
  11. NeverMore1701

    NeverMore1701 Fear no Evil Platinum Member

    38,418
    3,780
    Jun 25, 2004
    Amarillo, Tx
    I think you two need to **** and get it over with.




    :tongueout:
     
  12. faawrenchbndr

    faawrenchbndr DirtyThirty fan CLM

    36,092
    456
    Nov 24, 2005
    Troy

    Outstanding,..........thanks for the perspective Surf
     
  13. TangoFoxtrot

    TangoFoxtrot OIF 04-05

    4,272
    80
    Sep 10, 2008
    Nowhereville, USA

    This has become the forum of the drama queens. :upeyes:
     
  14. Matthew Courtney

    Matthew Courtney Instructor #298

    3,644
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    Oct 14, 2002
    Lake Charles
    In order to have a meaningful discussion, we need to define the term "drama queen". Does it mean an attention seeking fag, or a comedy averse female monarch?:rofl:
     
  15. series1811

    series1811 Enforcerator. CLM

    Iron sights are the basics. Why does the U.S. Naval Academy first teach midshipmen how to sail on sailboats, when the Navy doesn't use sailboats anymore?

    Teaching the basics first. People who know how to operate a sailboat and a powered vessel know a lot more about how to operate a powered vessel than one who only knows how to operate a powered vessel.
     
  16. mingaa

    mingaa

    835
    1
    Dec 3, 2011
    St. Louis, MO
    Recent stats on crime STDs etc. concerning St. Louis have been falsely reported by the media. St Louis is among the few remaining large cities in the US that have not merged the city and the county. It is no different than any other Midwest city with 2-3 million people in the GREATER municipal region. I've spent time in cities coast to coast and live in St Louis near a lovely park. The city is rich with culture, good dining and safe fun neighborhoods. Sure there are tough, nasty places BUT it is not out of proportion with other cities it SHOULD be classed with.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2012
  17. TangoFoxtrot

    TangoFoxtrot OIF 04-05

    4,272
    80
    Sep 10, 2008
    Nowhereville, USA

    I agree....I think
     
  18. fnfalman

    fnfalman Chicks Dig It

    50,542
    3,292
    Oct 23, 2000
    California & New Mexico, US
    Come on, old timer, just get with it!!! This is the 21st Century. We have GPS and electronics and stuff. Just push the button to turn the darn thing on and rock 'n roll. Iron sights are like stick shifts. What good are they?:whistling:
     
  19. Leigh

    Leigh

    2,567
    95
    May 22, 2000
    Eastern Kentucky
    Iron sights? Is that what this thread is about?
     
  20. Matthew Courtney

    Matthew Courtney Instructor #298

    3,644
    4
    Oct 14, 2002
    Lake Charles
    The guy who knows his equipment inside and out, along with the fundamental concepts about how his stuff is supposed to work is a lot more likely to get it to function in adverse circumstances. Combat is an adverse circumstance.