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Survey: Iron sights

Discussion in 'Black Rifle Forum' started by TangoFoxtrot, Oct 7, 2012.

  1. Matthew Courtney

    Matthew Courtney Instructor #298

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    Lake Charles
    I thought that it was very much worth it. In fact, it is one of the best things that I have ever read on Glocktalk.:bowdown::bowdown:

    PM me if you want me to delete your post from my reply.
     
  2. Big Bird

    Big Bird NRA Life Member

    9,521
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    Aug 7, 2003
    Louisville KY


    What Surf said +2


    Back in 89 I took command of my first Cavalry Troop. I was shooting NRA Highpower matches at the time and was the only soldier in my entire Cavalry Regiment of 5,000 that was an active competitor.

    We had a recurring problem of soldiers--particularly non combat MOS soldiers failing to qualify with their weapons. Now normally, basic Rifle Marksmanship was an NCO function. Not an officer function. But really--there were 5 decent NCO's in the whole unit who knew crap about rifle marksmanship. So the Squadron CO pegs me to fix the Squadron's Marksmanship program because he knew I had a passion for rifle competition.

    In the past the total marksmanship program consisted of an annual qualification. Set up a rifle range, hand the troop a couple magazines of ammo, and go qualify. No practice, no sight ins...just go qualify. Is it any wonder 40% or more were failing?

    Being an officer I dusted off the Training Manual on Basic Rifle Marksmanship--looked up some of the recommended pre-qualification training and practice ranges and sat down with some of the senior NCOs and Sergeant Majors in the Squadron. Holy crap! You'd have thought I was talking spanish to these guys. And being NCO's I was told 20 different reasons why what I suggested wouldn't work....
    I was a rifle shooter and had been shooting competitively since I was 15 years old. In high School I placed 3d in the state smallbore championship. I had a State Service Rifle Championship and a NRA regional Service Rifle Championship trophey. I knew "a little" about the subject. But I also knew not to tread too hard on these NCO's egos. So I scraped together a small range training team of some E6 and E7 former Drill Sergeants who knew how to teach basic rifle marksmanship and were up for my program. Long story short...we went to the Squadron CO--briefed him on our training program and he implemented it for the entire squadron. I'm not kidding when I tell you the Squadron Command Sergeant Major told me I was wasting my time...and he told the SCO the same thing. The SCO overruled him. Our first time out the squdron's rifle qualification scores went to over 96% as a result of this two day long refresher course and training range time. It was a victory but of course you don't get to rub that kind of victory in your detractor's face as you need their help and support in other endeavors.

    Like Surf above...I've literally trained hundreds of people to shoot rifles. What he said about the fundamentals is spot on. There are lots of excuses for not learning the right way to do things but there aren't a lot of good reasons.

    I recently took a carbine class and was very surprised to learn so much more than I had ever learned before about shooting a carbine short range. But I will tell you that I didn't struggle to shoot well in that class because my fundamentals were sound. So I did pretty darn good and could concentrate on the finer points of what was being taught--verus trying to figure out my cheekweld or trigger control. People who didn't have that foundation had a more difficult time.

    Iron Sights represent a fundamental skillset. There really is no excuse for not learning to use them. Not even eyesight.
    I shot highpower for years with a fellow that wore coke bottle glasses--he was a High Master and placed in the top five at Camp Perry 10 years in a row... Eyesight can be corrected.
     

    Last edited: Nov 9, 2012

  3. TangoFoxtrot

    TangoFoxtrot OIF 04-05

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    Sep 10, 2008
    Nowhereville, USA
    What BB said +3 you cannot ignore the fact of mastering iron sights its a must just like learning how to walk.
     
  4. TangoFoxtrot

    TangoFoxtrot OIF 04-05

    4,272
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    Sep 10, 2008
    Nowhereville, USA
    As a kid every rifle I owned had iron sights. I didn't use optics until years later. Now I still don't totally trust them I always make sure I have BUIS...just old school I guess.
     
  5. M&P15T

    M&P15T Beard One

    21,771
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    Apr 7, 2011
    Arlington, VA.
    It's not really "old skool" to still have irons/BUISs even when using an optic, or to not 100% trust an optic. Most folks here think the same way you do.

    Still, I wish there were some better after-market sights for ARs that dispense with the rear sight being a circle. I find a rear "U" shaped sight (like standard GLOCK sights) to work much better for me.

    Hell, maybe someone here knows of just such a product.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2012
  6. M&P15T

    M&P15T Beard One

    21,771
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    Apr 7, 2011
    Arlington, VA.
    Sort of, but not quite.

    I really like standard, old-skewl rifle sights like those on a Mosin. You know, you get the front sight blade nestled inside the "U" of the rear sight, and level them off, with equal space on either side of the blade, and that is a very precise alignment.

    Whereas, with AR sights, including the Troy BUISs on mine, you're floating a post within a circle, which isn't that precise for me.
    I've checked out Troy's site, and didn't see that they offered sights like that.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2012
  7. WoodenPlank

    WoodenPlank Who?

    7,958
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    May 15, 2010
    NW Florida
    The Troy Dioptic might be closer, except the V-notch is the 300m aperture, not the close in one that it should be.

    Edit: There's always true HK-type fixed diopter sights, too.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2012
  8. When used correctly, you dont even see or consciously use the rear "peep" on aperture sights, your brain automatically centers the post, you just focus on the front sight. If your trying to consciously align them, you need to stop doing that.

    If you really want to have a traditional leaf type "rifle/pistol" sight picture with the AR, and are running the BUIS on a flat top, with the rear sight in the link, I dont see why you coudnt just mount the rear sight more forward on the flat top, and use it like youre suggesting. Not something Id do, but if it works for you....
     
  9. M&P15T

    M&P15T Beard One

    21,771
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    Arlington, VA.
    Right, I totally understand that your vision focuses on the front sight, and the rear just blurs away. I'm sure that more practice with them is the key, and I'll probably find they work relatively well for me. And the sights on ARs are more of a "combat" type, than a precision type.

    And, to be logical, any distance that I would actually have to use my AR for "serious" purposes would be so short (should I use the irons for some reason) that the sight pic really wouldn't matter.

    Still, I love them old-style rifle sights....pure buttah.

    Just out of interest (and boredom) I removed my Eotech and tried the Troy BUISs out in the dark.....basically completely useless.

    Until I light up the Surefire, then they work just fine being back-lit.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2012
  10. Brian Brazier

    Brian Brazier

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    Jan 20, 2009
    Seattle, WA
    That is an aperture you install, not an entire sight, the notch part is only for CQB. EMA Tactical has a rear flip up with a simillar apature already installed http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/tracial-profile-rear-flip-sight-p-120140.html personally I perfer ghost ring sights on rifles, and on handguns I like dot and post.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2012
  11. D4RWlN

    D4RWlN

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    Nov 5, 2005
    Southeastern, AL
    I always have BUIS to go with my optics. I make it a point to practice with irons some when I shoot.
     
  12. M&P15T

    M&P15T Beard One

    21,771
    3,831
    Apr 7, 2011
    Arlington, VA.
    I'll use the irons next range trip. See how much more I can progress with them. That sight you posted a link to looks great, might be just what I'm looking for.....thanks.

    ETA:

    Holy schmoly.....that sight is only $40!!! Gonna order it!!!!
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2012
  13. TangoFoxtrot

    TangoFoxtrot OIF 04-05

    4,272
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    Sep 10, 2008
    Nowhereville, USA

    Let me know how that rear sight works for you if you order it. Its looks ok for that price.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2012
  14. surf

    surf

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    Jul 7, 2010
    I will add that some highly skilled marksman will often shoot tighter groups with irons then then say a red dot, even an EoTech with a 1 MOA dot. When you know what your looking for a skilled shooter will see more imperfections in their shooting platform via a dual plane sighting system like iron sights as opposed to a single plane dot set up. Often times irons provide the best accuracy or precision short of magnification for a skilled marksman.
     
  15. QNman

    QNman resU deretsigeR Silver Member

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    St. Louis, MO
    One of my M4's is iron sights only. Why? Because I like to shoot irons sometimes.

    I have two EOTechs, one Aimpoint (clone), one 3X Bushnell, and all have their purposes. But having an iron sight rifle is fun. Also, ALL have BUIS, so it is important to practice with iron sights "just in case".
     
  16. Big Bird

    Big Bird NRA Life Member

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    Louisville KY
    I know for a fact I can shoot much better groups with my irons than with a Red Dot. My Aimpoints are all 2 MOA but that are not precision sights (depending on how you define precision).

    But I know for a fact that I can outshoot my red dots with my irons on a slow fire black bullseye from a rest or prone unsupported. Irons allow for as much precision as you know how to get from them--and that can be quite a bit if you know what you are doing.

    Now go to a more practical timed run and gun application the Red Dot wins because its accurate enough but its also very quick and somewhat forgiving at 50 yards and under.
     
  17. Matthew Courtney

    Matthew Courtney Instructor #298

    3,644
    4
    Oct 14, 2002
    Lake Charles
    I am considerately more precise with iron sights out to about 150 yards when I have a high contrast target for which my sights are regulated. Under those circumstances, my irons are more precise than even magnified scopes! It is when the targets are changed to something that my irons are not or cannot be finely regulated for that magnified optics begin to allow for more precision.

    When time becomes more critical, a daytime illuminated 1.5-5 or 2-7 Leupold scope is lightning fast and quite accurate out to 300 yards.
     
  18. phil evans

    phil evans

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    May 26, 2006
    austin tx
    i'd really like to know what type of high contrast target you are using?
    i'm using nra SR-1 target centers at 100 yards and with my old eyes this target seems best for contrast at the 6 o'clock hold.

    i've shot iron and i want to do more of it to be better accomplished.
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2012