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Student shot at Gunsite?

Discussion in 'Tactics and Training' started by rvrctyrngr, May 8, 2010.

  1. rvrctyrngr

    rvrctyrngr Senior Moment

    2,989
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    Sep 15, 2004
    Gator Nation
    Student shot at Gunsite

    Man mistaken for target shot during Ariz. gun training

    by Jolie McCullough and Jose Zavala - May. 6, 2010 09:34 PM
    The Arizona Republic

    Read more: http://www.azcentral.com/news/artic...zona-gun-training-abrk0506.html#ixzz0nM6taQ7u


    A 50-year-old man was mistaken for a target
    and accidentally shot during an exercise at a
    firearm-training facility in northern Arizona,
    authorities said.

    The Florida man was training with three of
    his colleagues Sunday at the Gunsite
    Academy in Paulden, which is about 30 miles
    north of Prescott, the Yavapai County
    Sheriff's Office said Thursday.

    The man was standing on a catwalk as his
    colleague fired at targets. The colleague saw t
    he black silhouette of the man and fired,
    shooting the man in the abdomen, officials
    said.

    Instructors administered first aid before he
    was flown to a local hospital for treatment
    and surgery. On Thursday, he was listed in
    good condition.

    Trainees had been told not to shoot in the
    area of the catwalk. No charges were
    expected against the shooter.

    Buz Mills is the owner of the facility and
    candidate for governor. "We are relieved this
    client is in good condition thanks to the swift
    actions of our staff at Gunsite and the
    dedicated paramedics at the Central Yavapai
    Fire District," Mills said. Mike Scerbo, press
    secretary for Buzz Mills, said Mills has owned
    Gunsite Academy since 1999
    .

    *********************************************************
    Anyone have any additional information on this incident?
     
  2. JoshK

    JoshK

    572
    0
    Dec 5, 2009
    Austin, TX
    so the student shot exactly where he was told not to and get's off clean? personally, i think a reckless endangerment charge should be in order.... but that is just my opinion.... I'm glad the old man is going to be alright....
     


  3. steveksux

    steveksux Massive Member

    19,598
    1,919
    Jul 12, 2007
    "Don't shoot in the area of the catwalk???" WTF is someone doing downrange on the catwalk during live fire in the first place? Obviously a screwed up decision by the guy on the catwalk, the rangemasters for allowing it, the students for not speaking up and saying this is retarded.

    "Don't shoot at lanes 3 and 4, they're setting up targets while we practice these shooting drills.". uh..... NO.

    Randy
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2010
  4. It sounds like the catwalk is NOT downrange but maybe to one side. And the student, under the excitement of the challenge, just for a second saw the 'mover' and shot.

    Happly he shot low! And I bet used range ammo, FMJ or RNL, and not as bad as if it was a JHP.

    More will come out on this. Good idea to keep an eye on the AZ press.

    Deaf
     
  5. Sam Spade

    Sam Spade Staff Member Lifetime Member

    14,902
    2,353
    May 4, 2003
    No, the catwalk is above the targets. You can get an idea from where the stairs are, and can just barely see it in the shadows:

    [​IMG]

    and here:
    [​IMG]

    Here's how the "no shoot" is marked:
    [​IMG]

    Frankly, it's appears to be a failure of the 180. Putting a student from a basic course in front of a student in a basic course and counting on a red line to keep them safe is obviously poor judgement.
     
  6. rvrctyrngr

    rvrctyrngr Senior Moment

    2,989
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    Sep 15, 2004
    Gator Nation
    According to another article I read, they were using frangibles, due to the indoor environment.
     
  7. So they were in the building and he shot upwards?

    I wonder how much damage the fragable did? Should not have penetrated as much as the FMJ but it makes an awful large wound.

    Hope the guy comes out alright.

    But I'll tell you this, you don't put basic students in such situations. I've see some many people who were really not gun people handle guns in dangerious fashon when they are nervious (as this kind of course would make them.) Yes poor judgment by some safety officer.

    We will see how that plays out.

    Deaf
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2010
  8. rvrctyrngr

    rvrctyrngr Senior Moment

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    Sep 15, 2004
    Gator Nation
    That's how I figure it, based on the pics that Sam posted.

    As to the rest, I agree, completely.
     
  9. GreyEclipse

    GreyEclipse TheGreyEclipse

    1,924
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    Feb 18, 2010
    GA&WY
    I don't understand what happened...

    Sounds like it was just bad judgment all around.
     
  10. NEOH212

    NEOH212 Diesel Girl

    8,983
    11
    Mar 25, 2008
    North East Ohio
    That sucks. I wouldn't have wanted to be the guy on the receiving end of that deal! I hope everything turns out for the better for everyone involved. I bet the shooter feels like crap right about now though!
     
  11. mercop

    mercop

    486
    5
    Jul 10, 2002
    PA
    Did I miss where it said it was a basic course?
     
  12. Gallium

    Gallium CLM

    28,685
    9
    Mar 26, 2003

    Off the top of my head, I can think of uh, zero "basic" courses that involve shooting on the more, or decision based shooting.

    In my head, a basic course covers the fundamentals of shooting, and nothing else (with regards to shooting) - except for possibly clearing certain types of stoppages.

    'Drew
    :cool:
     
  13. MTPD

    MTPD

    1,669
    2
    Nov 9, 2005
    TEXAS
    Sam, what is the purpose of the catwalk? Is it an observation area so shooters going room to room can be observed from above?
     
  14. ijacek

    ijacek

    773
    2
    Jun 21, 2008
    FL
    I believe it is very useful in the advanced LEO trainings of specialized teams to evaluate their "flood" technique and overall movements. It aids in evaluating the operators from more objective viewpoint.
     
  15. Marky Mark

    Marky Mark Curmudgeon

    96
    0
    Dec 3, 2004
    Florida
    Ahem,

    A 50-year-old man was mistaken for a target
    and accidentally shot


    "Old Man"?

    :steamed:
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2010
  16. Sam Spade

    Sam Spade Staff Member Lifetime Member

    14,902
    2,353
    May 4, 2003


    I was told that it was 250, though that wasn't reported. 250 does simulators, as do all the pistol classes. I'll double check if you like, but a quick look over at Gunsite's calendar shows that none of the advanced courses were in session.
     
  17. Might be a misunderstanding of what constitutes a "basic" course at one of the major training centers. A basic course at TR, Gunsite, DTI and so on WILL include shooting with movement/on the move, decision-based shooting, etc.
     
  18. Then I suggest like indoor gun ranges bullet proof glass protect the catwalks. Not the whole ceiling as that cost alot of $$$, but sort of a 'V' of glass protecting the catwalk. Lke '\_/' shield. That way any errant shot, for say a ricochet, would be stopped yet they can look down and evaluate.

    Deaf
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2010
  19. Gallium

    Gallium CLM

    28,685
    9
    Mar 26, 2003
    Then, by definition, it is not a "basic" course. It is including elements that require a firm grasp of some basic shooting fundamental (in fact, all of them).

    Shooting on the move and decision based shooting are not components of a basic shooting course - don't matter if the course is offered at FLETC, F&N, SIG, FBI Academy, Farnham, Ayoob etc.

    'Drew
     
  20. And yet so many professionals in the business disagree with you. I think I will go along with the experts in the field that have been doing this sort of stuff for decades.
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2010