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Stock Verses Modified GLOCKS

Discussion in 'GSSF' started by DannyR, Jun 13, 2012.

  1. DannyR

    DannyR Moderator Millennium Member

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    We all like to shoot race guns. They are fun, for sure, but are they better in the hands of Masters? In a word, barely. Our Masters have access to the latest, greatest mods on the planet, but yet, they shoot stock GLOCKS as good, often better. Case in point, Dayton, Ohio. Dayton represents a fine average GSSF outdoor match. Now look at some of the Master's scores there:

    38.29--Unlimited, Grady Whitelaw
    40.09--Competition, Bryan Dover
    40.42--Master Stock, Grady Whitelaw
    41.65--Subcompact, Grady Whitelaw

    True, these guys are among the best of the best, but their times illustrate what little benefit all the bells and whistles can provide.

    The best investment one can make is in practice ammo, and the real secret of the Masters is practice with a purpose--lots of it. Use your previous scores to pinpoint your problems. Don't just go out, shoot a bunch of ammo, and call that practice. It's practice WITH A PURPOSE!

    It can be very simple, using a timer:

    1. Practice controlled pairs at just one D-1, either 5 yards or 10 yards, from a low ready position. Again, and again, and again. Your goal, 2 shots in the A-ring in under 2 seconds.

    2. Practice 1 shot at an 8in circle @ 11 yards, again from a low ready. Again, and again, and again. Goal, 1 shot in the circle in 1 second or less.

    The most important shot or two in a string is the first shot or two from a low ready position. Everything after that is a simple lateral movement.

    You own a GLOCK, you have magazines, mag carriers, holsters, belts, bags. If you don't have one, get a shot timer.
     
  2. yobohadi

    yobohadi Peon Trainee

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    I use the Free app: Surefire shot timer on my iPhone, once calibrated it works great.

    One thing I started using it for was bumping up the sensitivity so it would catch the click of the dry fire, so I can practice from a low ready position and when the beep goes off I can time how long it takes me to get on target and take the first shot. In just a few nights of practice I have gone from 1.5 seconds to 1.25 seconds, my goal is to get to 1 second before the Albany, Oregon match.
     

  3. DannyR

    DannyR Moderator Millennium Member

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    Now that is practice with a purpose!
     
  4. yobohadi

    yobohadi Peon Trainee

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    Of course, that dry fire practice doesn't guarantee I am hitting my target!
     
  5. S.Kargoh

    S.Kargoh

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    I Also use a shot timer app on my droid.


    Before last Match, I used the par time set at ridiculous low times and practiced dryfiring plates with a smith and wesson j frame revolver. At first itseemed impossible after a few days, those times actaully weree doable. Itwas actually possible to get a sight pictuee and squeeze the heavy da triggersmoothly whike on the paper plate.


    It seemed to payoff.
     
  6. Melissa5

    Melissa5

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    I did my first practice session with my new Pocket Pro II and I think it's going to help me to calm down and get a good sight picture before firing that first shot.
     
  7. gravitybad

    gravitybad

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    only if you're honest with yourself...

    dry fire practice is, imho, the best way to consistently practice and improve your game - short of actually putting rounds down range. The problem being its too easy to fool yourself into thinking you're getting better when actually its just the mechanics getting quicker. The more I dry fire, the more i see and know whether I've made a good shot or not. It was tough at first...thinking a few minutes of dry fire and i was hitting the A zone from a surrender position in .7sec

    Reality inevitably sets in at the range.......:sadangel:

    If only i could shoot the match from the comfort of my office with 1/3 size targets set to the adjusted distances...i would do great!
    i could just email my times in. Maybe even provide a side view video as proof of firing the full course. I would probably put myself down 1-2 penalty seconds on purpose just to make sure nobody thought i was cheating.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2012
  8. gravitybad

    gravitybad

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    Nice post...
    I completely agree with your PRACTICE WITH A PURPOSE statement but would add more emphasis on transitioning. That 'simple lateral movement' spells alot of trouble for many shooters. There are either 4-5 transitional opportunities within each string to either get it right or wrong. Get it wrong and time, usually in the form of penalties, adds up quickly. My practice focuses on what you've mentioned, initial shots from low ready (with a timer) but also incorporates transitional movements to at least 1 other target, usually 2. I think this transitional practice is vital to becoming a well rounded - accurate and quick shooter.
     
  9. SARDG

    SARDG

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    Agree to a degree... (hey, that rhymes...)

    In seconds, Division time-spread is compressed, the better you shoot (i.e.: Master). < 2 second spread between Divisions (and guns) seems like a short period to shooters whose scores are at 200.XX +, but to a Master shooting at that level, it's an eternity. Bama is still crying about missing MatchMeister by fractions of one second a month ago.

    Let's call the spread above (from UNL to Comp/MasStk), 2 seconds. My times (sadly) are approximately, double those scores. My spread from my best GSSF score ever (71.XX with a racegun) is roughly 4 seconds lower than my next best GSSF time (75.XX Guardian) - roughly the same 'percentage'.

    Using that example, someone shooting 200.XX in AmCiv/Guardian may expect 190.XX in Unlimited, with a racegun. Racers ARE faster - for a combination of physical (hardware) reasons. But racers are infrequently shot in competitive disciplines (compared to all other classes/divisions). Sure, they are fun to shoot, but in most disciplines are the red-headed stepchild. And remember, in Unlimited you are shooting against other Unlimited guns - all capable (in the hands of a competent shooter), of better scores.

    If you're having fun, go ahead and shoot them - and do perhaps +/- 5% better than your other divisions. I love shooting mine and as soon as I can shave 50% off my score, I'll be competitive.

    Of late, some of my best time savings have come from my reloads and the powder-puff loads.

    Of course… YMMV.
     
  10. GLW

    GLW

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    I don't often comment because I usually have little to add to the conversation that others have not already offered but since Danny used some of my scores to start this thread, I thought I might see if I can offer an explanation for my results. I hope this helps some of you as you practice for the next match.

    GSSF is a terrific sport for developing basic marksmanship skills. It is a simple format and I take a simple approach to it. I always try to shoot a clean score as fast as I feel comfortable doing it. Those of you who have watched know that my times for each string on a stage are usually pretty consistent, often varying by a few hundredths of a second. This isn't because I'm trying to shoot at a specific cadence but rather shooting at a pace with a consistent degree of urgency.

    I know that depending on the target array used, I can comfortably shoot clean scores at pace that will produce a total score between 40 and 41 seconds. That breaks down to 5 sec per string on the 5 to G, 4.5 sec per string on the M and 3 sec plate runs. This is basically how my sub compact scores were in Dayton: 14.73, 14.83, 12.09 clean. The slightly slower M scores were due to the small steel target used inleiu of the three pepper poppers.

    This is what I call shooting in my "comfort zone". Because my G-26 used in sub compact division is my most challenging gun to shoot in my gun bag, I do not try to press beyond my comfort zone when shooting it. This is also my warm up gun before shooting the other divisions so I tend to focus more on the fundamentals.

    I can sometimes score a little better with the other guns because of slight advantages in sight radius or in the case of UL with the red dot sight. But it is also because I am pressing a little beyond my comfort zone. This is where experience helps to know how much throttle to add without exceeding control limits. Sometimes I get too confident and fall off the edge!

    The bottom line and the reason I'm boring you with this is simply to offer the suggestion that you go out and discover where your personal "comfort zone" is. Until you can consistently shoot the stages at an identifiable pace that produces repeatable results, it will be difficult to gauge improvement. Do not focus on gear. You would probably be surprised to see how plain vanilla my guns are. Focus instead on wearing out your barrel with practice rounds gaining confidence in your ability to put rounds on target. This is definitely an accuracy match with a time component.

    I apologize for running on like this. I hope it makes sense to some of you and I'd be happy to help anyone if I can. Take care and have fun out there!
     
  11. DannyR

    DannyR Moderator Millennium Member

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    Thank you, Grady. Your responses are always noteworthy and welcome. Hope you and the boys can make it to Beckley, WV in August.:wavey:
     
  12. DannyR

    DannyR Moderator Millennium Member

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    Kitty,

    Grady's subcompact score beat 18 master and amateur unlimited scores at Dayton. Only two unlimited scores bettered him, his own 38.29 and Bryan Dover's 41.58.:whistling:
     
  13. lethal tupperwa

    lethal tupperwa

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    Kitty
    from your post
    you only
    have about
    30 seconds to go :O)
     
  14. DannyR

    DannyR Moderator Millennium Member

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    That is only 3 seconds per string. You can do it.:cool:
     
  15. GLW

    GLW

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    Thanks Danny. But I certainly wasn't fishing for compliments. My intent was to support your excellent advice to "practice with a purpose". My suggestion is to practice with the emphasis on accuracy. I see a lot of shooters at the matches shooting at an impressive pace only to have their scores ruined with excessive penalty points.

    With practice and patience most people will discover that it doesn't take a whole lot longer to get repeatable, accurate hits that will eliminate most of those penalties. If you are trying to go fast, you are hurting your chances of minimizing you score. Shoot at a comfortable pace for you. It takes a finite amount of time to fire an accurate shot. Trying to go faster will only hinder accuracy. Speed comes from reducing the time between shots which usually means reducing wasted motion in transitions but again, don't worry too much with that until you can confidently run the plate rack with six rounds.
    Trigger control is the key!
    Thanks again Danny for everything you do for us and for the sport. I look forward to seeing you soon on the range.
     
  16. ron59

    ron59 Bustin Caps

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    Grady... while you're checking in on this subject, I'd like to ask you a few questions relating to how much you shoot?

    What would be the amount of shooting you do in a year? Do you practice on a weekly basis? How many rounds a year do you shoot? Do you practice less now that you are at your current level, maybe you practiced more to "get" good?

    I ask, because I seem to do more practice than lots of other people... and while my scores are okay (best ever is 60.xx but tend to be mid 60's to mid 70's), they aren't where I'd like them to be. Of course, I realize it's easier to lower your score by 10 seconds when you're shooting 100 than when you're shooting 60.

    So any insight into your shooting background:

    • how many years you've been shooting competitively
    • how much practice you did in your previous years as you were going from novice to pro
    • how much practice you need to do now to maintain your current expertise

    I think might yield some insight to some of us.
    Any info is greatly appreciated.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2012
  17. SARDG

    SARDG

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    Oh don't I know... Grady's and Bryan's scores are hard to miss at the top of each Division page and I've been watching Subcompact as it hasn't been a particularly good Division for me anyway. But as LT said - I only need about 30 some-odd seconds to start catching up. Three seconds per string sounds marginally better. :faint:

    My discussion above however, focused on the 'advantage' of a racegun over stock and I'm convinced a marginal advantage exists - and even (perhaps especially) for newer shooters who may not yet have all the fundamentals mastered.
     
  18. Melissa5

    Melissa5

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    I agree with Kitty. It is easier to shoot a competition trigger than a stock trigger...especially for someone that has a tendency to go low/left. :embarassed: Working on it.

    Great advice, Grady! Thank you for taking the time to write of that.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2012
  19. SARDG

    SARDG

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    Low left is frequently 'anticipating the shot', but with Glocks, I find it's often the shooter's grip, leading to not enough trigger finger. Glock grips are like a brick, but if you've had a grip reduction on your racer, that could help a bit.

    Someone recently pointed out a quote by Mas Ayoob on his blog where he also suggests more trigger finger for a Glock. I can tell you that I've gotten dozens of Glock shooters back right with more trigger finger.
     
  20. Melissa5

    Melissa5

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    More cowbell...uh, trigger finger! :tongueout: