I did a search and only turned up 4 threads on the subject. They really didn't answer any of my questions.
Here's what I've got:
Wilson Border Patrol 12 Ga.
6+1
870 Express
(And no, I didn't spend thousands of dollars on it. I got it when they were still in the 800 dollar range. Awesome shotgun!)
I am doing a couple of upgrades to it right now.
So far:
Remington 870 Police Trigger Assembly group (Got a thread about that too)
Speed Feed "Short LOP" stock
TacStart Side Saddle
Upgrading to Wolff Tube Springs
What I would like are some Pros and Cons of the metal style followers vs. the synthetic followers.
Currently I have the Wilson style synthetic follower. I haven't had any problems with it. However, if a metal follower is a better upgrade, I would like to start using them.
I'm just going to relate from experience... I bought an 870 Express 12ga 6 or 7 years ago, I have gotten several since then. All came with the cheap orange plastic one and I had it stick when the magazine was empty. I couldn't put another shell into an empty tube without some force and monkeying around. I lost a few ducks last year because I couldn't reload fast enough. I bought the orange aluminum followers from Brownell's and swapped all 4 of them in my 870's. They are pretty slick, a vast improvement and no hangups!
Just FYI
The best polymer follower that Choate makes is the one they make for the Mossberg shotguns.. It's universal and will fit all 12 Ga shotguns. The draw back with solid end followers is they lower capacity in most shotguns by one round.
Why would I want to do better. It effectively illustrates the problem with your statement. Not everything that is bad gets put into the owners manual.
So being an Armorer yourself you haven't heard of or seen any 870s that were damaged by a steel follower either? Otherwise you would have already mentioned it.
I'm not a Remington armorer. I am a Glock armorer, S&W armorer, and a few more. I tend to focus on handguns. I have regulalry seen people try to argue that it is OK to do something because the manual doesn't say not to. That is incorrect.
You still haven't explained how a steel follower can cause damage.
I don't know, and more importantly I don't need to know. The issue is very simple...those in the know, those with the most experience and training, have said it is a problem. Unless someone can come up with some reason for the folks who build the gun to be mistaken about the qualities of the gun, or those who have examined literally thousands of guns would lie about what was good and bad for them, I tend to suggest the factory folks know what they are doing. Apparently, in this case, it isn't even an issue of "it is not addressed by the factory at all." Instead, it is "the factory specifically recommends against this."
David, I get what you are saying in regards to some things not being mentioned in a manual. Would you be able to cite where/who told you about the steel followers causing damage? I already know where aippi got his information from.
Again, since I was not clear (my bad!)...I'm not a Remington armorer. I am an armorer for a number of different companies handguns (and one rifle). My point was simply that just because it is not mentioned in the manual that does not mean it is OK. I do more Glocks these days than anything, and folks regularly want to argue with me because I won't make certain modifications the factory recommends against. Their argument, just like was posted here, goes "If it was bad they would have said so in the owners manual but they didn't so it is OK." That is not necessarily so. Lots of bad things are not in the manual that you learn should not be done during the armorers courses.
Again, since I was not clear (my bad!)...I'm not a Remington armorer. I am an armorer for a number of different companies handguns (and one rifle). My point was simply that just because it is not mentioned in the manual that does not mean it is OK. I do more Glocks these days than anything, and folks regularly want to argue with me because I won't make certain modifications the factory recommends against. Their argument, just like was posted here, goes "If it was bad they would have said so in the owners manual but they didn't so it is OK." That is not necessarily so. Lots of bad things are not in the manual that you learn should not be done during the armorers courses.
No, the thread is about making modifications to firearms. The specific modification under discussion here is one for a shotgun, but the issue is one that is common for armorers of all weapons, and AFAIK many other manufactured products. I've seen it regularly with Glocks and other guns. When discussing modifications one somewhat regularly encounters attitudes similar to those presented here, that of "I know more about the gun than the folks who build it and who have worked on it the most" and "If they don't prohibit it in the owners manual it must be OK." This is common, not only in firearms, BTW. My point is that in most endeavors there is a good reason to follow the advice of the manufacturer when they say not to do something to a product. The Remington 870 is no different.
In Jerry Kuhnhausens Shop Manual it states that magazine stop shoulder flaring is almost always caused by steel followers slap peening the stop shoulders in heavily used magnums.
I use a Scattergun Tech lime plasic follower with extra power spring in my 870 Express.I used a round file to groove the sides of the follower to allow it to get past the dimples in the mag tube.The bright lime color and the dimple make this follower easy to confirm an empty magazine by sight and feel.
I have attended the Remington Police Armors course on two occasions. No warning on steel followers.
FYI Remington sold 870's with steel followers until about the time Express guns became popular. I have about a half dozen in my parts bin that I have saved over the years.
As a note Remingtons plastic followers will crack and shatter binding up the gun. I have replaced more than a few.
At both of the Remington schools I attended, the instructor, Lyle Wheellock, showed us a solid aluminum followers that were in federal contract guns so agents couldn't put them in backwards.
CCPF - you must have missed it as it was about Stainless Steel followers not Aluminum. I don't know why Lyle would not cover it with your class as he certainly did in ours. Maybe you were not paying attention. He had use reach into the mag tube to feel the lip and then explained that stainless steel is harded then that that lip and would damage it. One more time - STAINLESS STEEL -
He would not have demonstrated that if it was not to make this point. I will be in Ilion next month for recertification and will mention that some guys attended the class and did not understand the point and maybe he can emphizise the point more clearly. I know he is still there as I asked Cheryl when I signed up for the April course.
In Jerry Kuhnhausens Shop Manual it states that magazine stop shoulder flaring is almost always caused by steel followers slap peening the stop shoulders in heavily used magnums.
He seems to being saying that it's caused by a steel follower slapping the lip in an empty mag tube during "magnum" recoil with heavy use.
The force of the slap would be dependent on how weak the mag tube spring is. If you have an extra power spring, the less the recoil would be able to rebound it and cause slap. Very rarely do you fire a shotgun with an empty mag tube.
You also have to look at the lower cost shells with steel bases. It seems to me they would do more damage to the stop lip than a light weight steel follower.
I will be in Ilion next month for recertification and will mention that some guys attended the class and did not understand the point and maybe he can emphasize the point more clearly. I know he is still there as I asked Cheryl when I signed up for the April course.
used wilson in mine, not had a problem yet as I replace them regularly, I bought 10 of them so when they start looking battered,I toss them and pop in a new one..Im also going to look into adding an alum follower.
The only thing choate on mine is the extension itself because its steel and not plastic,the springs are from an 870p,the follower wilson.
I put a Vang stainless follower in my 870 Marine mag and it would bind consistently. I replaced it with a Wilson follower and haven't had any problems since.
I put a Vang stainless follower in my 870 Marine mag and it would bind consistently. I replaced it with a Wilson follower and haven't had any problems since.
How did it bind? What caused it to bind in the mag tube?
I have just installed my new Aluminum Follower in my mag tube with a Wolff XP mag tube spring. This follower feeds and moves better than the polymer one I was using. There is a definite "fit" with this follower than the polymer. There is no way this can tilt or bind. I added a little bit of GLP to it and away I go. Hopefully the weather will be nice this week.
I was experimenting with a couple other things I have on hand. I got a Tacstar side saddle, I already had a Mesa side saddle, I got a speed feed short stock (Standard).
I installed everything except for the Tacstar side saddle. It's still in its package. That thing is horrible. The fit is totally off, too many steps to install and unistall (I know, you're all scratching your heads), it's huge compared to other side saddles.
I don't like side saddles. It took me a couple years to really figure that out, but I don't like them.
The short speed feed stock (Standard) is nice, but I would much prefer my thumb not being jabbed into my cheek bone. I know, I can just lay my thumb to the side, but to me, that isn't a proper firing grip. I'll stick with the speed feed pistol grip stock. Plus if I'm jonesing for a short stock, I'll just cut it down a bit and fit a new butt to it.
I like my shotgun a lot. I really like when it's kept simple. What I do need is a light. I believe in using them, no questions, especially in my home. I do not like the surefire forend. I've tried on another shotgun and don't like it. I would much prefer a mount that will affix to the barrel and a cord that can be affixed to the forend.
I saw a setup here on GT. I cannot find that thread anywhere. I even went online and found the particular mount but I cannot remember where I found it. Any help would be great.
How did it bind? What caused it to bind in the mag tube?
I have just installed my new Aluminum Follower in my mag tube with a Wolff XP mag tube spring. This follower feeds and moves better than the polymer one I was using. There is a definite "fit" with this follower than the polymer. There is no way this can tilt or bind. I added a little bit of GLP to it and away I go. Hopefully the weather will be nice this week.
I was experimenting with a couple other things I have on hand. I got a Tacstar side saddle, I already had a Mesa side saddle, I got a speed feed short stock (Standard).
I installed everything except for the Tacstar side saddle. It's still in its package. That thing is horrible. The fit is totally off, too many steps to install and unistall (I know, you're all scratching your heads), it's huge compared to other side saddles.
I don't like side saddles. It took me a couple years to really figure that out, but I don't like them.
The short speed feed stock (Standard) is nice, but I would much prefer my thumb not being jabbed into my cheek bone. I know, I can just lay my thumb to the side, but to me, that isn't a proper firing grip. I'll stick with the speed feed pistol grip stock. Plus if I'm jonesing for a short stock, I'll just cut it down a bit and fit a new butt to it.
I like my shotgun a lot. I really like when it's kept simple. What I do need is a light. I believe in using them, no questions, especially in my home. I do not like the surefire forend. I've tried on another shotgun and don't like it. I would much prefer a mount that will affix to the barrel and a cord that can be affixed to the forend.
I saw a setup here on GT. I cannot find that thread anywhere. I even went online and found the particular mount but I cannot remember where I found it. Any help would be great.
How did it bind? What caused it to bind in the mag tube?
It would tilt just a hair so it would get hung up when the mag was completely empty. It would only do this when I was trying to load the first round. I don't know if the follower was a little out of spec or the mag tube entrance was.
But, like I said, I changed to a Wilson hi-vis follower and I haven't had any problems since.
I run the Aluminum Brownells follower in my M4. Works great, very light, so cycling is more of a sure thing when shooting heavy loads, and it holds up well and isn't going to batter anything.
aippi... time has passed... do you have any update from the spring training?
Sounds like the consensus is that an aluminum or synthetic/polymer/delrin etc. follower is not likely to cause any damage to other parts of the shotgun.
Yes, nothing has changed. Stainless steel is still stainless steel and it is harder the the lip that stops the follower. It is still not recommended. But hey, some of these guys on this site no more then them silly Instructors who all have 40+ years building these weapons and servicing them. When they are not instuction they are the guys that are working on the P models sent in for repair.
Also, I did find in Jerry Kuhnhausen book where he talks about the damage a stainless steel follower does. But again, what does he know, he only wrote the "Book" on the Remington shotgun.
So all you guys that can't accpet the facts from the professionals who build these weapons and the guy who wrote the difinitive shop manual on these weapon, just keep using any ol' follower you want.
DHart - I just received some of the Derlin followers that the owner of GDM sent me. I will try them out but can't pass judgement till I put some rounds through the weapon. To me, most all the followers out there do what they are designed to do when new. It is after hundreds of rounds when they start showing wear that problems come up.
I am led to understand this Derlin material is pretty tuff so I am looking forward to trying these out.
Since I have all Wilson tubes on my personal weapons I of course use the follower that comes with that tube, the wilson follower.
I tried using the Wilson followers on my custom builds for those guys that wanted the Remington tube extension. I started seeing issues when the Wilson was being used in the Remington tube with the Remington spring. Not on every weapon, but on enough that I stopped using it on the Remington tube extension kits.
So, I am hoping the Derlin one is the answer. You can see them at www.gdmgear.com and check out those barrel brackets with rails and the one for attaching a light. He sent me one of each to test also.
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