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speeder gold dots 115 vs 147gr

Discussion in 'Kahr Club' started by skar, Jan 30, 2005.

  1. skar

    skar

    141
    4
    Jul 1, 2004
    michigan
    Have a glock g17 and kahr pm9. The man at the gun store said to use speeder gold dots. ? So i got a box of 115gr and 147gr.Which one should i use for a carry load FOR BOTH GUNS. I use winchester white box for target.
     
  2. 147. use search button for background.
     

  3. T Earl

    T Earl BufordT Justice

    34
    1
    Nov 8, 2004
    I go with speer 124 grain gold dots. I may be old school but I can't get over the old 147 grain anti-kill bullets. Yes I know they are better now then they used to be but it's all about confidence in the round, and I have none in the 147's.
     
  4. drofnas

    drofnas Senior Member

    What he said.
     
  5. Michigun

    Michigun Miss Michigan?

    3,706
    11
    Mar 1, 2001
    Michigan, USA
    Between the 2? I say the 147-grainers. ^c
     
  6. pbass

    pbass

    112
    0
    Apr 22, 2004
    Virginia
    115s rock. Of course, if anyone has a full set of street shooting data that conflicts with the Marshall-Sanow data set, the data collected from coroners and street cops, hell, let him publish it. Any takers? Didn't think so. Of course, detractors have only had 13 years to come up with their own set of street data. Maybe they just haven't had enough time, eh? Or maybe all they have is conjecture. Me, I'll take hard data. Any hard data beats any armchair theory any day. PS, Georgia Arms makes good Gold Dot +P and +P+ loads cheap. But I'll stick with Cor-Bon 115 +P JHP for both my G17 and PM9. That is, until I swap them for a G23 and a PM40.
     
  7. crash700

    crash700

    534
    0
    Jan 19, 2004
    Texas
    I am sure that this will cause a stir, but I think that you should go with what is the most accurate out of your pistol. Shot placement is more important than bullet weight. A well placed shot with either round can have a devastating effect. IMHO, the 115 might be the way to go due to a short barrel and I want the highest velocity, provided that my pistol functions well and accurately with it. If not, I will go with whatever my gun likes the best (accuracy,feeding,reliability). If they function the same, go with what you feel comfortable with. My partner was involved in a shooting and was using hard ball ammo and put two in the chest (center mass) of the suspect and he died at the scene. I would never recommend hard ball ammo to anyone but my partner is apparently cheap and decided to use practice ammo from the range. Shot placement made a difference as I don't feel that it was the capability of the hard ball ammo that did in the suspect. There are many variables in a gunfight. Is the suspect on drugs? Mentally ill? I am not flaming anyone on their choice of ammo, each of us has to go with what we feel comfortable with. My duty pistol is just something to get me to a bigger gun, meaning rifle or shotgun! That is just my .02 . ;?
     
  8. fredglock

    fredglock

    174
    0
    Aug 12, 2004
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Kewl. So, does the hard data mean that the 125 gr. .357 is the number one stopper, or does it mean that cops carried the .357 more than anything else during the data collection period?

    fred
     
  9. Climb14er

    Climb14er

    610
    74
    Mar 28, 2003
    Denver, Colorado
    With that said, the 147gr. shoots better in my PM9 than the 124 and 115 grains.
     
  10. crash700

    crash700

    534
    0
    Jan 19, 2004
    Texas
    If it is a noticeable difference, I would go with the 147 grain. Accuracy is important to me because you are responsible for that bullet once it leaves the barrel of your gun.
     
  11. Orive 8

    Orive 8

    455
    1
    Jun 8, 2004
    Mt. Lebanon, PA
    My wife is carrying 147gr Speer Gold Dots in her P9.
     
  12. pbass

    pbass

    112
    0
    Apr 22, 2004
    Virginia
    I've got "Street Stoppers" here and it covers .40 S&W, .357 SIG, 10mm and other more modern rounds.

    You can decide for yourself what merits greater consideration because each set of data explains how many shootings went into the percentage rating. For instance, in .40 S&W one of the authors carries 165 Golden Sabers even though the 135 CorBon has a higher percentage and you can see from the percentages that this is probably a good choice, since if the sample were greater, it would most probably match or exceed the CorBon figure.

    There is an intriguing chapter on "Effects of Multiple Bullet Impacts" which shows that a second bullet usually improves the percentage of stops only marginally, however for .40 S&W in the 135 CorBon with an already awesome one-shot stop rate of 96% (23 out of 24 shootings), there were also 10 cases of 2 shots each that resulted in 10 stops. Not anywhere near the number of .357 cases studied, but personally, I would buy a .40 based on those 34 cases.

    Regarding .357, I'd love to see figures from the new Double Tap Gold Dot 125 at 1600 fps from a 4" barrel, but yeah, considering revolvers are yesterday's bubble gum, street data will be slow in dribbling in, if ever. Biggest bonus is they claim almost no muzzle flash!

    I am actually considering switching to a .357 L-frame for armed security in dense movie crowds to add a little safety against a gun grab, since I am very happy with the K-frame with the Magna-Trigger Conversion from Rick Devoid that I bought for my wife, and the conversion will work with the L-frame. If I do it, I'll go with the DT 125 even with no street data.
     
  13. fredglock

    fredglock

    174
    0
    Aug 12, 2004
    Pittsburgh, PA
    I am familiar with the work of Marshall, Sanow, et.al., and my point was that this is an area where statistics tend to be confusing rather than useful. I decided long ago that the debate over handgun "stopping" power was meaningless. None of the modern researchers really have anything more definitive to say about it than did Hatcher two generations ago.

    I'm not trying to disparage anyone's choice of calibers - everyone must decide for themselves what they are comfortable with. Personally, I'm happy with anything I can shoot effectively. After all, they're just handguns.

    fred
     
  14. patman

    patman Large member

    1,687
    0
    Jul 28, 2003
    minnesota
    What crash700 said.A .22 round in the heart would do it.If you can't hit it,it doesn't matter what you try to hit it with.Go with the most accurate.
     
  15. Exactly correct, Patman. 'Worked in a slaughter house about 40 years ago and saw thousands of steers and cows dropped with one .22 to the head. I wouldn't want to use one for self defense but placement and training is everything.
    Phil
     
  16. WIG19

    WIG19 Light left on

    3,785
    0
    Oct 27, 2003
    Renegade State
    http://stevespages.com/page8f9mmluger.html

    Barring some actual human terminal performance data, I'd personally go with the 124 or 147gr. Shooting things thru filled milk jugs isn't a big indicator of performance, but the Gold Dot (like the Ranger-T and the Golden Sabre and some HydraShok) is capable of penetrating layers of cloth and still providing good expansion, where other rounds tend to have the cavity plugged up and then act like a solid. If the 115's & 147's are all you can regularly get & you want Gold Dots, 147gr is my vote, 124gr would be my pref. The variety of quality defensive 9mm has never been better. ;j
     
  17. pbass

    pbass

    112
    0
    Apr 22, 2004
    Virginia
    What they give that's better than statistics is data. To my understanding, statistics is the interpretation of data. For instance, in the 109 reports that they received involving shootings with one hit of Federal 115-gr +P+ JHP, there were 98 stops, or 90%, whereas in the 232 reports that they received involving shootings with one hit of Winchester 147-gr JHP, there were 172 stops, or 74%.

    I guess you could really stretch things and call the arithmetical reduction of 98/109 to 90/100 statistics, but not me. That's such a common operation it even shows up on mom's grocery calculator.

    However, when we talk about other theories, we're not even hooking things to reality, when things are based on penetration without ever showing any real world figures as to how penetration is relevant. That kind of thinking isn't even statistics, but pure conjecture.

    Stopping power means something that stops, and that is not at all a rocket scientist concept. I like the Marshall-Sanow data because it collects data and stops right there. It doesn't explain why, and I don't care why. All I care is how well things work on the street.

    As for proving a relationship between stopping power and penetration? Jeff Cooper pointed out (or something like it in something I read over 30 years ago), to most of us, a pro football lineman has 100% stopping power but 0% penetration, however the cosmic rays that pass through our bodies 24/7 have 100% penetration but 0% stopping power.
     
  18. nksmfamjp

    nksmfamjp

    18
    0
    Oct 29, 2002
    Not when you are shooting someone on drugs. That too has been proved. A 45ACP or 3 to center of mass should stop most anything though.
     
  19. pbass

    pbass

    112
    0
    Apr 22, 2004
    Virginia
    Someone somewhere wrote something to the effect that in the event the target is insensate, only mechanical damage will do, like breaking the hip.

    Similarly, in ASP class we were told to whack the calf muscle (back of the calf) hard enough to make it spasm uncontrollably and the person will go down. It is something the muscle does, not the brain.
     
  20. Glock9mmFan

    Glock9mmFan VoteLibertarian

    182
    0
    Feb 24, 2003
    MT
    Marshall and Sanow have been discredited and proven wrong more times than Jimmy Carter. I wouldn't trust any of the so-called "data" they spewed.

    Anyway, in your G17, the 147grs perform better, but in the PM9 which has a smaller barrel, you want the faster, lighter bullet. The reason is the shorter barrel causes a loss of velocity which limits penetration. To maintain the 12"+ of penetration in a short barrelled gun needed to hit the critical, blood bearing organs from any direction you need the 115s.

    If you would like to know why you should never believe a word of the Marshall/Sanow stopping power myth, see: http://www.firearmstactical.com/afte.htm