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Discussion in 'Reloading' started by sjones, Apr 28, 2010.
I have win 231 and auto comp.Whats the softest shooting load just for target shooting?Thanks. sj
I am a reloading nub, so take the following with a grain of salt.
Check out Brian Enos forums. There are tons of discussions about this. The most common theme is VV N320, Titegroup, Solo1000 behind a 147gr bullet (usually lead or coated lead). Basically a pretty fast burning powder behind a relatively heavy bullet will give the lightest felt recoil.
I am working up a load:
3.8-4.0gr of Titegroup (seeing what will make 130-133pf out of a G17 and provide decent accuracy)
I don't think either of the powders you have will be considered soft shooters in 9mm. I have personally never loaded with either (again reloading nub here).
Perhaps mink grips instead of rosewood. I mean I'm just saying....
I agree with BB. In terms of "light loads" in any common caliber (9mm, 40 S&W or 45 ACP) there probably is not a combination using commonly available components that has not been used by someone who posts on Enos' forum. This forum is good but there is a ton of info over there. I like and use Solo 1000 and I likely would not have heard of it if I didn't read Brian's site (literally everyone I asked uses Titegroup).
There seems to be a bit of confusion among some of the newer loaders concerning recoil, (or perceived recoil if you prefer).
Given like velocities out of the same, or similar gun, a heavier bullet will produce more recoil.
I've got Clays that I bought for .45acp. I may try some at some point with the 124gr jacketed 9mm bullets I have and see how it compares to Universal.
For IDPA and USPSA I have found nothing with less percieved redcoil than 3.1 of VVn310 and a 147 gr berry's at 1.160" OAL, that meets PF.
I find that using ear plugs instead of lead makes for softer loads.
PF adds another variable with bullet weight being half of the equation, the other half of course being velocity.
Although I'm not a gamer, would love to be but my cane gets in the way, if I understand the concept of PF correctly you'd have to increase the velocity of the lighter bullet to equal the PF of the heavier bullet. Again, another variable.
It's simply a law of physics, a heavier projectile propelled forward at the same velocity as a lighter projectile will produce more rearward force, (recoil).
Blame Newton, he's the one who wrote the law.
You can certainly achieve a light 9mm load using Clays but this powder nowhere near as accurate for 9mm loads as it is for .45ACP
Use the 231 for lighter loads.
So far the lowest load I've found is 4.4 gr with rainier 124 gr truncated tmj.Is there any lower that will still function in a g19? Thanks
Yep, Clays behind 124s didn't group for me so much as "pattern." Didn't matter how hot or light, anything across the listed load was horrid in terms of accuracy. Titegroup is much more accurate and still gives nice light recoil characteristics.
I have tested a lb of AutoComp and this is the best I found in 9mm, <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comffice:smarttags" /><st1:State w:st="on"><st1lace w:st="on">Berry</st1lace></st1:State>’s and my G19 & 17 with a OAL of 1.135.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o></o>
Hey Jack try 2.7 Solo 1000 under a 160 grain at 1.135. Meets minor PF and shoots like a .22 [ if you have a slow burning jug try 2.8 ] . Two of my 9's love it and its accurate.
Power Factor is bullet times velocity divided by 1000. So using a heavier bullet means you can reduce the velocity, i.e. amount of powder. Using a faster powder with a heavier bullet means consuming most of the powder in the barrel reducing the rocket effect as the bullet leaves the barrel. Of course all this goes out the window for an Open gun because it needs lots of gas volume to work the comp so we use very light bullets with very slow powders and create major fire balls at the end of the muzzle.
There is no need to buy another can of powder to shoot somebody else's pet load.
Get some heavy bullets, 147 is better than 125 is better than 115.
Load with the handbook starting load of W231, usually 90% of the maximum.
When you are out of 231, go to the starting load of Auto Comp.
When that is gone, buy some more 231 or HP38 which is now the same thing.
See, this is another reason I don't shoot gaming events... not only not able to move fast or stand long enough to shoot the stages, I'm not smart enough to figure out or really understand all these power factors.
Kinda wish these events had been around when I was able to do them... looks like great fun. Shot SASS for a couple of years and did pretty good in the duelist class, (no one knew how to shoot one handed) but broke too many bones moving around in the stages. Got to the point where I couldn't tell if I was hearing gunshots or my bones snapping.
I go out and watch Little Stevie and the other guys shoot every once in a while... I'll get my excitement through them... I had my turn, lots of them.
The issue is that PF (momentum) and energy is not the same and the "games" were written to favor momentum which means the 45ACP.
To get the same momentum from a light bullet, the lighter bullet must travel much faster and drive energy up.
Momentum goes up linearly with bullet weight and velocity whereas energy goes up by the square of velocity.
To show a "real" example of this:
I have a 124gr 9mm load that makes a 126PF from my G34. The mean velocity is 1011dt/sec with a muzzle energy of 281ft-lbs.
To get the same 126PF with a 230gr 45ACP, the bullet only needs to be going 547ft/sec. This round would only make 153ft-lbs of energy.
Some of the recoil questions that are asked is because someone at sometime decided that the 45ACP was better than the 9mm for "practical" use. Therefore the rules were written to favor the 45ACP. You can see this in many ways. When the AWB was in place and HiCaps were not allowed, the rules for IDPA were written to only allow 10 round magazines (which BTW has never changed) for SSP. These rules favor the larger calibers and minimize one of the 9mm biggest advantages over larger rounds: magazine capacity. However, look at the Custom Defensive Pistol rules: MUST be 45ACP (why no 10mm??), be loaded with no more than an 8 round magazine. It specifically says "High capacity pistols can be used as long as the pistol meets ALL division criteria". CDP really means "Custom 1911 Pistol". At the time the rules were written there were plenty (i.e. Glock 21, HK USP) 45ACP pistols available with 10 round magazines but one of the advantages (a few extra rounds) was written away in the rules even though the magazines were readily available. Do you think any of this had to do with the IDPA founder being Bill Wilson and wanting to have a special class where only custom 1911s are competative via rules had anything to do with these decisions? Is it possible that there was a special class made so that Wilson Combat could sell more pistols that had a special class?
So, it al comes down to, these are games and have not a lot to do with reality if you want to "win". If you want to have fun and go shooting on an interesting course of fire, well, either game it up and use reduced power loads or use full power loads and use the games as "training". I think the key is to have fun with whatever route you decide to take. And unless you are REALLY REALLY serious, the only competition is yourself. As long as you keep in improving, then you are a winner even if others continueally beat you.
BTW Jack....maybe if the cane gets in the way, you could just beat the target into submission with it and still score points???
You've made my point better than I could ever do. If I had to learn and understand all those rules I's give up and bounce rocks off the steel.
Think I'm gonna stick with black powder for my competition fix, the rules are short and simple. Load from a powder measure, don't blow down the barrel, stand on your hind legs and try not to wound anyone. Even I can understand those.
BTW... I can hit the gaming targets, hell, I can hit 'em at a hundred yards, that's not the problem, it's the loss of daylight while I hobble from one shooting position to another that tests people's patience. They time me with a sun dial.