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So, when did god change his mind?

Discussion in 'Religious Issues' started by frank4570, Jul 27, 2011.

  1. frank4570


    Jun 25, 2004
    So, during the time of the jews, gods rule was that all good people in the world go to heaven. The 7 Nohide laws. That seems pretty reasonable.

    Then he created jesus. And created hell. And made the new law that everybody goes to hell no matter what kind of person they are. Except for those who worship the guy who lived in Bethlehem, those people get to go to heaven.

    Why did he reverse his rules?
  2. BradD


    Jun 22, 2000
    Read Galatians from 2:15 to the end. The answer is there.
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2011

  3. Brasso

    Brasso Millennium Member

    It's pretty sad that an atheist thought of this. If only more Christians would come out of their box and think.

    Not that I'm encouraging atheism. Far from it. But he makes some good points.
  4. BradD


    Jun 22, 2000
    Brasso, I won't debate any of this endlessly, but I have a question for you. If you believe in keeping the Law as part of your salvation (and I'm sorry if I'm mis-stating that), how do you get past Galatians?
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2011
  5. Japle

    Japle John, Viera, Fl

    Feb 26, 2000
    Viera, Florida
    The rules of any religion are made by the people who run the church.

    If you only need to be a good person to be saved, you don't need a church.

    If you don't need a church, you won't contribute money to a church.

    The people who run the church are the ones who need your money to live the lifestyle they enjoy. They make the rules.

    It's not hard to understand.
  6. The problem is that there aren't any "good" people, but since Jesus died for all sinners from the beginning of creation, God has been able to be merciful.

    Peter wrote that the rules haven't changed.

    Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened [his] mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
    10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2011
  7. Brasso

    Brasso Millennium Member

    I don't believe in keeping the Law as part of my salvation. This is where Christianity misses the mark, so to speak.

    My salvation was secured when Messiah died on the cross and I accepted Him. The works come in later, as I try to live an obedient life to please Him. You don't keep the Law to get saved. You keep it because you ARE saved. That's part of the Covenant. He redeems you and in return you try not to keep sinning. This is the True Gospel.

    REPENT! and believe for the Kingdom of God is a hand. Christians have the grace and forgiveness down pretty good. It's the repent part that they seem to have a problem with. You can't repent to something that you think no longer exists. Look up the definition of repent. It doesn't simply mean to feel sorry about what you did or didn't do. It means to turn and go back the other way. There is only One way. There has always been only One way. God has been trying to get His people to follow it for thousands of years.

    Galatians has nothing to do with the Law becoming void.

    Isa 48:12 “Listen to Me, O Yaʽaqoḇ, and Yisra’ĕl, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last.
    Isa 48:13 “Also, My hand has laid the foundation of the earth, and My right hand has stretched out the heavens. I call to them, let them stand together.
    Isa 48:14 “All of you, gather yourselves, and hear! Who among them has declared these? יהוה has loved him. Let him do His pleasure on Baḇel, and His arm be on the Chaldeans.
    Isa 48:15 “I, I have spoken, I have also called him, I have brought him, and he shall make his way prosperous.
    Isa 48:16 “Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, I was there. And now the Master יהוה has sent Me, and His Spirit.”
    Isa 48:17 Thus said יהוה, your Redeemer, the Set-apart One of Yisra’ĕl, “I am יהוה your Elohim, teaching you what is best, leading you by the way you should go.
    Isa 48:18 “If only you had listened to My commands! Then your peace would have been like a river, and your righteousness like the waves of the sea.

    Isa 8:20 To the Torah and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this Word, it is because they have no light.

    There is a pretty good partial study of Galatians here:
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2011
  8. frank4570


    Jun 25, 2004
    So, you're saying that non jews and non christians have always, and still are able to get to heaven same as jews and christians?
  9. Norske

    Norske Millennium Member

    Mar 24, 1999
    Why are there so MANY Gods?

    Why are there so MANY religions?

    Why are there so MANY variations of religions within Religions?

    How many people do you know who are sure that "their" religion is the only "right" one and all others are false? What if ALL religions are equally false?

    There are ONLY TWO invariable constants about Religions throughout history, worldwide.

    (1) The existence of A Religion of some kind or another.

    (2) Clergy within said Religion who derive their sustenance from the contributions of the faithful marks who buy whatever is their load of nonsense about "what God wants" of them.

    Some Clergy say God demands a 10% Tithe envelope in the offering plate every Sunday. Some such Clergy demand to see your Tax Returns to ensure that you are not shorting God's take from you.

    At least one Clergyman said that God demanded that several hundred faithful followers feed cyanide-laced Kool-Aide to their children and then drink some themselves. And they did.

    Some Clergy say that God demands that they hijack airliners and slam them into skyscrapers. And they did.

    Gee, God sure cannot seem to make up his mind about what he wants from us, does he/she/it?

    Could it possibly be that (gasp!) the unquestionable Clergy are lying to us about what God wants from us? Either because they are just as deluded as their predecessors who lied to them, or they are simply lying for their own personal benefit? Hard to say which, but it doesn't matter anyway.

    Even the Gods themselves are not constant.

    That which is "important" is that which is always a constant.

    Gods are never constant from one religion to another.

    Therefore, the details of the individual God worshipped are unimportant.

    They are "mportant" only to provide moral authority to the clergy, so said clergy can demand material support of the gullible faithful.

    They also waste a lot of time on meaningless, button sorting, "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin" arguments and "Holy Book" quotations such as you see thread after thread after thread about here in the GT-RF.

  10. Not me. The Bible says so. God is willing to overlook ignorance as long as it is not willful. With knowledge comes responsibilty.

    Acts 17:30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent.
  11. FifthFreedom


    Jul 6, 2005
    Short answer:

    He never did.
    There is no "Hell" in the Torah either.
  12. That is correct. The idea of a continually burning Hell is not Biblical. There is the grave, and there is the garbage dump where things get burned up. The idea of being tortured in an afterlife is of pagan origin.

    Malachi 4:1 " For behold, the day is coming, Burning like an oven, And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up," says the Lord of hosts, "That will leave them neither root nor branch.
  13. ricklee4570


    Sep 11, 2009
    Its all in the bible, you just have to find it!
  14. Norske

    Norske Millennium Member

    Mar 24, 1999

    First, prove that the Bible is in fact the revealed word of God.

    If it isn't, it is not worth much more than the paper it is printed on.


    And, NO, "you have to accept it on faith" is nothing but a cop-out.

    "Faith" is nothing more than "Opinion".

    Unproven opinion.
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2011
  15. SDGlock23

    SDGlock23 Glockoholic

    First is knowing that there are no good people, none of us are born worthy of salvation as is and back then for God to grant remission from sin there had to be shedding of blood.

    God didn't then create Jesus and hell, Jesus was created long before then but only came to earth as God in the flesh to redeem mankind once and for all, the perfect Sacrifice. Father God deemed our earthly sacrifices as insufficient and He loves us so much that He sent His Son to be the Savior of all mankind as long as man believed and followed Jesus' ways.

    Hell/Sheol/Tarturus/etc was created when Lucifer rebelled against God. He and 1/3 of Heaven were cast down to earth and some into the pit bound in chains until the time appointed by Yahweh revealed in Revelation. We are here because during the rebellion we chose to inhabit bodies of man and get a second chance, those who didn't choose to are forever damned. Those who have the eyes to see that they need Jesus will be granted eternal life so that we can go back home to our original state, which is in Heaven with God/Jesus/Holy Spirit.

    Also even back then, when the "good" people, being those who lived by the Law of God died, they didn't go to Heaven. They went to the better side of Hades. Now after Jesus' resurrection, all go to Heaven. But the Bible also says there is going to be a new Heaven and a new earth when Satan's 7000 year timeline is up.

    So why did God change the rules? Animal sacrifice was no longer sufficient. His Son Yeshua would be the final and ultimate sacrifice for all of humanity. Belief in and obedience to Jesus is key to making it to heaven.

    Last edited: Jul 28, 2011
  16. frank4570


    Jun 25, 2004
    That might be worth it's own thread.
  17. Ogreon

    Ogreon unlisted

    Oct 3, 2006
    Even if one denies that the Bible is the word of God... It is an example of ancient literature. It sheds life on ancient culture and belief. It has reverberated throughout the art and philosophy of western civilization. The language of the King James Version has had major impact on English literature. Looks like a lot of worth to me.

    Are the Iliad and the Odyssey trash because Zeus doesn't sit on Olympus?
  18. Brasso

    Brasso Millennium Member

    Last edited: Jul 28, 2011
  19. Blast

    Blast 'nuff said

    Aug 2, 2002
    NKY/Cincinnati area
    I think "Thor" is upset because Odin doesn't sit in Asgard.:whistling:
  20. Kingarthurhk

    Kingarthurhk Isaiah 53:4-9

    Sep 5, 2010
    Hebrews 11:"<SUP>1</SUP> Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. <SUP id=en-NIV-30175 class=versenum>2</SUP> This is what the ancients were commended for.

    <SUP id=en-NIV-30176 class=versenum>3</SUP> By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.
    <SUP id=en-NIV-30177 class=versenum>4</SUP> By faith Abel brought God a better offering than Cain did. By faith he was commended as righteous, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith Abel still speaks, even though he is dead.
    <SUP id=en-NIV-30178 class=versenum>5</SUP> By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death: “He could not be found, because God had taken him away.”<SUP class=footnote value='[a]'>[a]</SUP> For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. <SUP id=en-NIV-30179 class=versenum>6</SUP> And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
    <SUP id=en-NIV-30180 class=versenum>7</SUP> By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that is in keeping with faith.
    <SUP id=en-NIV-30181 class=versenum>8</SUP> By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. <SUP id=en-NIV-30182 class=versenum>9</SUP> By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. <SUP id=en-NIV-30183 class=versenum>10</SUP> For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God. <SUP id=en-NIV-30184 class=versenum>11</SUP> And by faith even Sarah, who was past childbearing age, was enabled to bear children because she<SUP class=footnote value='[b]'>[b]</SUP> considered him faithful who had made the promise. <SUP id=en-NIV-30185 class=versenum>12</SUP> And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.
    <SUP id=en-NIV-30186 class=versenum>13</SUP> All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth. <SUP id=en-NIV-30187 class=versenum>14</SUP> People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. <SUP id=en-NIV-30188 class=versenum>15</SUP> If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. <SUP id=en-NIV-30189 class=versenum>16</SUP> Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.
    <SUP id=en-NIV-30190 class=versenum>17</SUP> By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had embraced the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, <SUP id=en-NIV-30191 class=versenum>18</SUP> even though God had said to him, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.”<SUP class=footnote value='[c]'>[c]</SUP> <SUP id=en-NIV-30192 class=versenum>19</SUP> Abraham reasoned that God could even raise the dead, and so in a manner of speaking he did receive Isaac back from death.
    <SUP id=en-NIV-30193 class=versenum>20</SUP> By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau in regard to their future.
    <SUP id=en-NIV-30194 class=versenum>21</SUP> By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of Joseph’s sons, and worshiped as he leaned on the top of his staff.
    <SUP id=en-NIV-30195 class=versenum>22</SUP> By faith Joseph, when his end was near, spoke about the exodus of the Israelites from Egypt and gave instructions concerning the burial of his bones.
    <SUP id=en-NIV-30196 class=versenum>23</SUP> By faith Moses’ parents hid him for three months after he was born, because they saw he was no ordinary child, and they were not afraid of the king’s edict.
    <SUP id=en-NIV-30197 class=versenum>24</SUP> By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be known as the son of Pharaoh’s daughter. <SUP id=en-NIV-30198 class=versenum>25</SUP> He chose to be mistreated along with the people of God rather than to enjoy the fleeting pleasures of sin. <SUP id=en-NIV-30199 class=versenum>26</SUP> He regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward. <SUP id=en-NIV-30200 class=versenum>27</SUP> By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the king’s anger; he persevered because he saw him who is invisible. <SUP id=en-NIV-30201 class=versenum>28</SUP> By faith he kept the Passover and the application of blood, so that the destroyer of the firstborn would not touch the firstborn of Israel.
    <SUP id=en-NIV-30202 class=versenum>29</SUP> By faith the people passed through the Red Sea as on dry land; but when the Egyptians tried to do so, they were drowned.
    <SUP id=en-NIV-30203 class=versenum>30</SUP> By faith the walls of Jericho fell, after the army had marched around them for seven days.
    <SUP id=en-NIV-30204 class=versenum>31</SUP> By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient.<SUP class=footnote value='[d]'>[d]</SUP>
    <SUP id=en-NIV-30205 class=versenum>32</SUP> And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson and Jephthah, about David and Samuel and the prophets, <SUP id=en-NIV-30206 class=versenum>33</SUP> who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, <SUP id=en-NIV-30207 class=versenum>34</SUP> quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies. <SUP id=en-NIV-30208 class=versenum>35</SUP> Women received back their dead, raised to life again. There were others who were tortured, refusing to be released so that they might gain an even better resurrection. <SUP id=en-NIV-30209 class=versenum>36</SUP> Some faced jeers and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. <SUP id=en-NIV-30210 class=versenum>37</SUP> They were put to death by stoning;<SUP class=footnote value='[e]'>[e]</SUP> they were sawed in two; they were killed by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated— <SUP id=en-NIV-30211 class=versenum>38</SUP> the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, living in caves and in holes in the ground. <SUP id=en-NIV-30212 class=versenum>39</SUP> These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, <SUP id=en-NIV-30213 class=versenum>40</SUP> since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect. "