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....so I used TiteGroup for the first time

Discussion in 'Reloading' started by FLIPPER 348, Dec 2, 2012.

  1. FLIPPER 348

    FLIPPER 348 Happy Member

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    ....using the loading data on the can for 158g .38sp, 3.8 grains over a small pistol primer.

    Out of the psitol (6" dan wesson) they shot fine.

    Out of the Timberwold (18" barrel rifle), starting with the 1st round more then 1/2 of the 20 rounds squibbed.

    Is this a pistol only powder??
     
  2. SJ 40

    SJ 40

    13,306
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    Jan 17, 2011
    Vermont
    You don't say whether your bullet is a cast of jacketed but just a quick look at Hodgdons data shows 3.8 for cast as the maximum load.
    Their 158 gr. jacketed load shows 3.9 grs. as the maximum load .
    Your starting load was at or near max.check your load data again. SJ 40
     


  3. FLIPPER 348

    FLIPPER 348 Happy Member

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    I used HSM plated bullets and they recommend using load data for cast bullets. The powder had the info right on the can so I thought I'd be good2go. It's a great load in the pistols for plinking though! ....just not the rifle
     
  4. Three-Five-Seven

    Three-Five-Seven Señor Mombo Millennium Member

    2,727
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    Aug 8, 1999
    Great Southwest
    I just got home from a match where lots of guys were using less Titegroup than you report in 20" and longer rifles without a problem. Many hundreds of action shooters use a lighter load than you report all year long with great success in rifles. So, Titegroup clearly works in rifle length barrels. Some of our guys use 26" barrel rifles with less Titegroup than you without a hint of a problem.

    I guess that leads me to suspect something is wrong with your scale, powder measure, or primers. The load is solid.

    Definitely get to the bottom of this because it is potentially very dangerous to deal with squibs.

    I shot 3.8 grains for a while. Went down to 3.2 and started having problems with primers backing out. I use 3.5 grains now and that runs great in the pistols and the rifles I use (USFAs, Rugers, Uberti 1973 Winchester clones). I have used this load in all three of my 38/357 20" barrel rifles and have never had any event even approaching a squibb. I only shoot lead bullets.

    I'll say it again -- are you absolutely, positively sure you had 3.8 grains of powder in those loads??? Is there any way you can think of that you might have made an error in weighing or measuring??? Do you have more than one powder scale??? Have you calibrated your scales??? Do you have any rounds left that you can pull down to double check the charge weight (on another scale, obviously)???

    I have caught myself more than once over the years seeing the digit I was looking for on a scale rather than the one that actually was in front of me. 2.8 grains of Titegroup might well stick a bullet in a rifle barrel, and 1.8 absolutely would. I always write the charge weight I'm after on a 3x5 card with a black Sharpie and put it in front of the scale when I'm loading (in that fashion). It has saved me more than once from making a mistake.

    I hope these comments help. Please keep us posted.

    Please describe your scale(s) to us and your procedure for calibrating them/it so we can better understand your loading process. Also, if you were using a powder measure, please describe it and your procedure for cleaning and maintaining it.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2012
  5. sig357fan

    sig357fan

    938
    71
    Apr 8, 2008
    SW OH
    first off, what do yuou mean by "squibbed"?

    did the primer fire but the bullet didn't clear the barrel or did the primer not fire at all?

    if the primer didn't fire the first attempt, did you try a second time?

    if the primer didn't fire at all in the rifle, did you try them in your revolver?

    sig357fan
     
  6. F106 Fan

    F106 Fan

    8,033
    268
    Oct 19, 2011
    If you don't have check weights for your scale, you might want to think about them. I like to check my scale with a weight very near the charge weight.

    Calibration weights for digital scales are worthless for checking anywhere near the load weight.

    http://www.midwayusa.com/find?userSearchQuery=check+weights

    What kind of scale are you using?

    Richard
     
  7. FLIPPER 348

    FLIPPER 348 Happy Member

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    I'm using a Hornady GS-1500 scale with calibration weight. It works just fine for W296 and Bluedot .357mag loads.

    By 'squibb' I mean that the bullet did not clear the barrel, lots of smoke upon opening the action so there was powder







    yes
    -no
    -no
    -yes
    -no, I only loaded up 30
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2012
  8. Three-Five-Seven

    Three-Five-Seven Señor Mombo Millennium Member

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    Great Southwest
    For the record, I would never answer yes to that question.

    You're probably a better man than I, but tentativeness will help us get to a solution more quickly.
     
  9. FLIPPER 348

    FLIPPER 348 Happy Member

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    I am positive I had had 3.8 according to my scale. I will borrow a friend's scale to verify. I checked every load as I was only loading up 30 or so.
     
  10. RustyFN

    RustyFN

    2,530
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    West Virginia
    No. I use it with 125 grain jacketed bullets and shoot them out of my Marlin 1894 lever action rifle. Never had a problem.
     
  11. FLIPPER 348

    FLIPPER 348 Happy Member

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    What powder load are you using??


    FWIW- the Timberwolf has an aggressive 6 grove barrel
     
  12. Three-Five-Seven

    Three-Five-Seven Señor Mombo Millennium Member

    2,727
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    Well, if the charge weight isn't the problem, then the barrel is the next suspect. I don't really know what a "Timberwolf" is. If the barrel is constricted, undersized, or if by "aggressive" you mean it has unusually high lands, then there might be a problem. But, a 3.8 grain load of Titegroup is a 1000 fps+ load out of a rifle. (probably more like 1300+ fps). So it is hard to imaging something slowing that down to the point where it wouldn't clear the barrel.

    Did you see pressure signs in your brass after the squibbs? That's a lot of pressure to contain without other indicators in the brass.

    Also, at what point in the barrel did the bullets stop??? Does the gun have a dovetail rear sight??? A dovetail front sight??? Any other external stress points that might refer to a constriction in the bore??? (Marlins were notorious for having "choke" points in their bores at the sight locations). See anything when you shine a light through it???
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2012
  13. RustyFN

    RustyFN

    2,530
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    Sep 29, 2006
    West Virginia
    Titegroup for 357 mag, I didn't see load data for 38 spcl. I'm using 7 grains which is close to the start load according to my Speer manual.
     
  14. Three-Five-Seven

    Three-Five-Seven Señor Mombo Millennium Member

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    We're talking about a 158 grain bullet. Hodgdon shows 5.0 grains as MAXIMUM for that bullet in the 357 magnum.

    Titegroup has a very steep pressure curve and is dangerous if overcharged. It is meant for light to medium loads and does not achieve magnum velocities.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2012
  15. unclebob

    unclebob

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    Mary Esther FL
    I would suggest reading the write up in the Speer Manual on the 38 spl. Yep with that light of load with an 18” barrel you are going to get squib loads according to what was written.
     
  16. FLIPPER 348

    FLIPPER 348 Happy Member

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    Bend Oregon
    That's exactly what I think is the case here. I will use the Titegroup with the HSM plated bullets for pistol plinking only. I hear the combo is good with .45acp.

    thanks for the help y'all
     
  17. shotgunred

    shotgunred local trouble maker

    8,728
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    Mar 1, 2008
    Washington (the state)
    Every powder is dangerous if overcharged.
    Fast powders are safer If used in powder puff loads. We recommend using it for light loads and try to steer new reloaders from it. A lot of competition shooters use it for major power factor. Yes a few blow up their guns every year and then go get another gun an keep going. I like red dot in the 38 special myself. Which I believe is faster than tightgroup. But it completely burns up in my 4 inch barrel.
     
  18. F106 Fan

    F106 Fan

    8,033
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    Oct 19, 2011
    That's a $26 electronic scale. In the view of MANY around here, no electronic scale under $100 is worth a darn. Regardless of how it is branded. We might be wrong but that's the current thinking.

    But the important thing is that you realize that the calibration weight is useless. Sure, it allows for a test at full range but you aren't weighing charges anything like full range. You want to check the scale against, perhaps, 4 grains of check weight.

    You absolutely must have check weights:

    http://www.midwayusa.com/find?userSearchQuery=check+weights

    They would be even more important with a $26 electronic scale.

    Richard
     
  19. FLIPPER 348

    FLIPPER 348 Happy Member

    22,845
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    Oct 7, 2000
    Bend Oregon
    I ran 18 more thru the revolver during lunch today, great load. The scale works well for my needs. i do dowel check each load before sending it thru the turret.
     
  20. Colorado4Wheel

    Colorado4Wheel

    14,933
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    CO
    Cheap scales. Gotta love them. (that was sarcasm). Get a calibration weight set. With out one how could you possibly know how well it actually works.

    Are you trickling onto that scale by any chance.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2012