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Discussion in 'Tactical Shotguns' started by myates3, Feb 8, 2014.
They make it in orange.
I haven't always agreed with AKstick and in fact we have argued before but I think you guys are reading to much into what he is saying.
I personally agree with him about calling out or any other means of alerting an intruder to my presence.
I will not be calling out or making any obvious noises to reveal my position until I have have my sights on an intruders chest. If said intruder is unarmed, I will give said intruder every reasonable opportunity to surrender, unharmed if he chooses. If said intruder flees instead of surrendering, so be it, at least I didn't have to use force. If said intruder has any kind of weapon visible or advances on my position or makes any furtive movements, I will offer no warnings and will use deadly force to protect my children and my spouse.
Statistics and all that are lovely but someone entering my home, illegally and with criminal intent is not my friend and I have no idea what his/her intentions are. I will not "err" on the side of caution with my family present.
This isn't any kind of "killer" attitude. It's a husband and father attitude.
Combine these two posts and I don't think there is much else to say. Identifying yourself to an intruder is just plain dumb!
Did I miss something? At what point did I advocate shooting anyone, for any reason?
I corrected an inaccuracy in your statement, by pointing out that the legal justification for self defense, varies by your location. And illustrated that your statement of "shooting someone you haven't identified is murder, even if it turns out he was a threat" is factually incorrect in atleast one state in America.
I also stated, that the rest of your "post" was completely personal choice, but that I felt that A.) It is tactically, a poor choice to rack your firearm, or otherwise alert the intruder, who's intentions you've not ascertained that you're home, and or armed. And B.) That I think the mindset of "I have insurance, I'll just replace my stuff and won't defend it" or "Nothing I own is more valuable than a life" is silly, but as I said, to each his own.
And I finished by saying, that I feel no obligation to interrogate an intruder in my home for his intentions. Which, is consistent with the applicable self defense statutes of my AOR.
At no point, did I state I'd do XXX, infact, I deliberately said what I did, to avoid painting myself into a corner, so to speak.
As for the rest of your post, well, I honestly don't have a clue how to address most of it, because evidently, even if you don't suggest/advocate/claim your intention is to shoot someone, even within the law. Evidently you become a "big shot killer" and get a stern lecture if you disagree with you.
Based upon what? That I said, I feel no requirement to interrogate someone to learn their intentions if they're in my house? or Because I have enough training, by true professionals, that I understand its more advantageous, from a tactical stand point, to remain quiet, than it is to announce not only your position, but your intentions, to an unknown assailant, or assailant, with unknown intentions?
If its a justified shoot, there may not be ANY consequences, and is entirely speculative on the circumstances based the exact circumstances, of each case by case basis if there will be, and what they may or may not be.
And what exactly, do you base these, chances on? And where do you draw your numbers from? Because with just a few minutes in google, I was able to find quite a few reports of burglarys turned murder, or assault, kidnapping, and atleast one grand theft auto, after the burglar(s) was surprised in the act.
I've also seen more and more reports, of people being killed, and the criminals later confessing that they hadn't intended to murder the vic, but it just happened when things didn't live up to their plan. Or if the initial plan fails, they resort to violence.
The truth is, its not that simple. Many people, will never be in that situation, because they make good choices. Vision is one sense, its a critical one. But having someone lit up, via flash light or similar is not the only way to interrogate their intentions.
Just thought I'd quote this before it changes again.......
Scared is no way to live your life. In a home invasion situation, the last thing you will be thinking about is what you said or did not say on the internet. If you are that worried about what you post on the net, you should either, NOT post on the internet, or NOT own any guns.
Many, many times a day, thieves break into homes WITH GUNS! They WILL shoot you for what you have. Yes, they are WILLING TO KILL YOU, for what is in your home.
What would I do in this given scenario? Hopefully I will never be present if my home is ever burglarized again. Yes, I said AGAIN.
Anyone who has every cleared a house with a gun in one hand and an iPhone flashlight in the other knows the value of a good weapon light! I know if I were burglarizing a home and someone lit me up with a 180 lumen stream light I wouldn't know whether to **** or go blind, but I would probably go blind first.
The warning about what you post is real. AI&P stands for Advocate Investigation & Protection. I am a Criminal Defense Investigator and I have had to deal with volumes of Discovery that was turned over to us by the Prosecutor. Forums, blogs, e-mails and Face Book are great resourses for DA's and their Investigators.
What you are putting out here is public and for all the world to see. I was shocked by how easy this stuff is to find. Mess up and you may see it again. That is solid advice from a Professional who has seen it. He who has ears let him hear. Don't give two squirts what some of you do as some of you give very little thought to what you say much less what you post. But there are people coming to this forum who are trying to decide how to deal with situations that call for deadly force or in how deal with an intruder or even someone stealing from their yard. My advice if for them.
OH, just want to add Thousands of people will be without power tonight in GA. Hope they have weapons lights on their dedicated HD just case and were no relying on the light switch on the wall.
Now that is nice.
Barricade yourself in the bathroom with a curling iron and wait for the authorities to arrive!
You sound like you are itching to burn someone!
I'm glad you don't live near me!
You sir, are a twisted individual.
I seldom post, but read through this thread, and hopefully my response might give cause for some people to think carefully.
I have discussed with my Asian wife what I want her to do if we hear a forced entry.
I have a split level home about 2800 Sq Ft. Upstairs is the kitchen dining room a hall way that ends in a bathroom straight ahead, guest bedroom to the left, master bedroom to the right, and my reloading room across from the BR about 6' up the hall. We have a wireless silent "Hot Prowl" button in our BR. that connects to the Sheriff dept. It will get pressed. I will move to my Reloading room, and she will call out "Get out of this house or I'm calling my husband".
If they leave probably the police might get them as they are loading up, if they try to rush the bedroom door, I am in perfect position at the back of their head (s)?
There are only 2 options, either get flat on the floor, unbutton your pants, and slide them down around your ankles (don't want anybody trying to jump up and fight while waiting for the LEO's), or turn to confront me and I have a hell of a mess to clean up. (plus a long night ahead).
A lot of talk about taking a life. Yes I believe there is a Kamic debt that a person could incur if they do it just because the law says it is OK.
In this case, they were asked to leave, and upon thinking there was just a little Asian woman, they tried to get into her bedroom. They are not local neighborhood teenagers just trying to steal a few things.
Dry run your thoughts a few times with your wife (and kids?).
Trying to clear your house solo with a light, puts you on the wrong side of success.
Drawing them into where you have the best tactical advantage is way better....Learn from history:
Sun Tzu.....(The Art of War 500 - 320 BC)
All warfare is based on deception. Hence, when able to attack, we must seem unable; when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away;
when far away, we must make him believe we are near. Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and crush him.
According to some in this thread,.....it's your ONLY line of defense!
Every situation is different, there is not "canned response" when dealing with a home invasion. Some instances a light will be a benefit, some a detriment. Some instances calling out may scare off the intruders, other times it may just let them know where the prey is located.
Hopefully, no one will ever have to deal with this. Hopefully the bad guys will only invade while the home is vacant. Dogs, alarms and cell phones are great tools to greaten your chances of surviving an invasion. As a last resort, firearms are the trump card!
The thread is drifting, but I'd like to respond to this post...
Old Wanderer, you might want be careful about detailing your defensive strategy online for all to see. In the aftermath of a self defense shooting, one can expect to be the subject of a criminal investigation, and one can expect civil litigation. Your words describing your strategy could be used against you.
You described a plan to "entice the enemy" into an ambush. Imagine what an attorney could do with your post in a lawsuit? They would use those words to support their theory that you WANTED to use deadly force and enticed them accordingly.
I think its great that you and your wife have sought to develop a plan...
But having her plan to create a false impression that she is alone and therefore vulnerable may not be wise. Your commands...whether issued by you or your wife...should convey strength, resolve and be loud, clear and simple. Tell them to leave and that the police are coming. After all, isn't it preferable that they leave rather than come upstairs?
Additionally, why allow them upstairs at all? Consider issuing your commands from the high ground.
Personally, I'd rather the police catch them fleeing the neighborhood then have to confront them myself upstairs, in close quarters, even armed with a shotgun. If I do have to confront them, I'd rather do it from the top of the stairs while they are the bottom of those stairs.
If you do have to confront them, I would recommend against the tactic of having them unbuckle their pants. To do so, they have to move their hands close to their waistband...the very place where many carry weapons. Action is faster than reaction...once their hands are at their waist, it's possible they could draw and fire before you have time to recognize what's happening and react.
Instead, order them to hold their hands high above their head. If you are behind them, so much the better. If not, consider having them turn away from you. If you are worried about their potential movement, you can order them to their knees, or possibly have them prone out. The key, though, is to keep those hands VERY visible and away from their bodies. Keep the commands simple and clear. Tell them what they should do.
I would be reluctant to deliberately separate from my wife and move to a different room with a potential threat downstairs. It might be better to stay together, avoiding any potential cross fire situation. The two of you will be better able to communicate with each other and support each other through the crisis. If you do have to confront the threat, and are together, preferably behind cover, you can focus on the threat while she communicates with 911.
It's your business, but I thought I'd offer these thoughts for you to ponder.
I can't sum it up any better than that.
Your gun is up to the job. Now make sure YOU are. Mindset (no hesitation - determination to win) is everything.
I like mine simple. Good ammo and a Surefire fore end. Thats it. Light and handy.
Well, I plan on racking, calling out, AND turning the light on. As much as I appreciate all the tactical light use, I'm a huge fan of focussing on the job at hand - ID target/threat and go/no go. Same with all the safety futzing. Pick it up/safty off, rack and light. Everytime, all the time.
That said - I am a fan of giving the likely burglar EVERY chance in the world to leave unharmed, perhaps with a guitar, or other electronic appliance. And yes - getting Surefired might knock you over in the dark anyway.
By the way - who says your motion lights will be working?
I always believe that if a BG is triangulating on the light beam, he came in with three of his operator friends, with Select Fire MP-5's, silencers, and night vision anyway - so I'm toast.
I think he means identifying your target and "forced entry" isn't a good enough identification to start shooting, since we've already about cases where the forced entry was anybody from the police to a neighbor trying to get in the wrong door, to a family member who had lost their key.
It just looks too ninja-ed up for me to feel like it would be reliable. Not to mention, if it isn't a liability on reliability, it's a legal liability if you ever use it to shoot somebody. I wouldn't want to show that to the 12 retired folks and little old ladies who are deciding whether I am formally charged with a crime, if things aren't 100% clear. I'd rather have my home defense shotgun look like this: