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Shoot 'em then treat 'em???

Discussion in 'Firefighter/EMS Talk' started by A GLOCKwork Orange, Nov 17, 2004.

  1. A GLOCKwork Orange

    A GLOCKwork Orange ArmedAsWeSpeak

    68
    0
    Jul 17, 2001
    Florida
    OK, here's the scenario. You are off duty and a BG is robbing you and your family at gunpoint. While the robber is reaching for your wife's purse, you draw your weapon and fire two shots into his chest, putting him to the ground. The BG is now incapacitated and as you check him to remove any other weapons he may have on him, you detect agonal respirations but no pulse.

    Do you call 911 and work him or let him die there on the floor?

    ---Chris
     

  2. N2DFire

    N2DFire Who Me ???

    149
    0
    Apr 29, 2003
    Ferrum, VA
    Work'em.

    If it's a legit shoot - then I see it as being no different than say a SWAT Medic capping a BG & then treating him.
     
  3. I have often asked myself this. I don't know if I would even aproach him. He may still be dangerous. I would reather spend my time making sure my loved ones are Ok. I guess after all thats done I may get a towel to stop up some blood.
     
  4. skyydiver

    skyydiver Gravity Slave

    120
    0
    Apr 1, 2003
    OK
    Ripped from today's headlines:

    See latest Marine tactic on this, try CBS news.

    IT's A JOKE PEOPLE, and a darn good one I think.
     
  5. obxprnstar

    obxprnstar Goth Lover

    1,009
    0
    Jan 8, 2003
    Zombie Patrol
    Here is the obligatory, is there a duty to act? And, how would it look if you didn't work him?
    Those questions being posed, likley I would, and not due to the prior questions. I think most of us got into this line of buisness to help people and to do a little bit of good.
    Although perhaps that would be throw out the window due to this gentelman attempting to rob me and making me fear for the lives of my family.
     
  6. MDT

    MDT Glock21Love

    170
    0
    Mar 24, 2003
    Claremore, OK
    You're off duty. Do you carry anything that would be of use to "work" on this guy? Agonal resps, pulseless. Are you gonna crack his chest on the street? Intubate him? This guy is dead. He is "deader" than anything you can do there. I wouldn't risk exposure to his blood/saliva. Unless you're a tactical medic on a call, you should call 911. You'll need your energy for the obligatory ensuing police investigation.

    MDT
     
  7. Brian Dover

    Brian Dover

    538
    0
    Jul 31, 2002
    SW Ohio
    Far from being a clear cut answer to this hypothetical. Is the scene safe? (that one sound familiar to anybody?) Who's going to watch out for the possible associates of the C-T-D bad guy, and anyone else with an interest in your situation, while you're "running the code"?
    Sorry, I only got questions here, no answers.
     
  8. obxprnstar

    obxprnstar Goth Lover

    1,009
    0
    Jan 8, 2003
    Zombie Patrol
    MDT and Brian,

    All valid questions. As for the scene saftey and PPE, I'm an assoc inst for a local EMT class and totally overlooked that.

    Hopefully none of us will ever be placed in that situation.
     
  9. DaleGribble

    DaleGribble Sandwich!

    7,293
    427
    Mar 20, 2003
    Land of the toothless!
    First words out of my mouth during practicals were BSI and scene safe!

    If I have to shoot someone then obviously that scene wasn't safe and I'm getting my family out of dodge! They would be my first priority, not the dying criminal!
     
  10. Glkster19

    Glkster19

    519
    0
    May 12, 2001
    Lansing, MI
    MDT hit it on the head. The guy is dead. Unless there's a trauma center within a couple blocks and an ambulance closer, he definitely isn't getting worked. He's pulseless immediately following 2 shots to the chest, he's not coming back.
     
  11. I'm not an EMT but would like to throw in a variable if I may.

    Civil liability.

    If you save him by chance, he's going to sue your life away.
    On the other hand, his family will probably do the same if he dies.
     
  12. LtTripMD

    LtTripMD Nuke & Pave

    58
    0
    Oct 18, 2002
    Upstate, NY
    i understand everyone's point about scene safety, blah, blah, blah, but after all that the question still stands. assuming the scene is safe, your jump bag is close by, you have latex gloves, your buddy is watching your back for other bad guys, and you have the training to do something about it, then absolutely do your best.

    it's -->*almost*<-- criminal not to in my opinion.

    trip. <--- ER doc with a gun.
     
  13. MDT

    MDT Glock21Love

    170
    0
    Mar 24, 2003
    Claremore, OK
    As an "ER doc w/ a gun" and volunteer tactical medicine support for a SWAT team, if I'm off duty, I can promise you I WON'T have any medical supplies w/ me. I can further assure you that I won't have the team to watch my back. Hell, I just stopped into the local "Stop-N-Shop" to get milk. If the dirt bag that I just dropped because he was trying to drop me first is showing agonal resps and PULSELESS, he's dead! He ain't gonna get better. He's pining for the fjords. Bloody pushing up daisies! Singing with the choir immaculate! Dead guys don't get better. I MIGHT crack this guys chest in the ED with a thoracic surgeon in house, but on the street, this guy is dead. I wouldn't try to change that.

    MDT
     
  14. Alpha752

    Alpha752

    153
    0
    Aug 16, 2002
    Cleveland, Ohio
    Doc, I understand your rational, and agree with you, dead guys stay that way. But what about the legal aspect of this? You will be investigated about this, and will probibly end up in court, even if it is a good shoot. Wouldnt it look good to do a few minutes CPR on the guy to show you were only defending yourself and did all you could to save him? The cops/judge/prosecutor will definitly say "Well your a doctor/paramedic/emt/guy who knows CPR, why didnt you try to help him?"

    Again, I agree its probibly pointless, but im just looking at the other aspects. Thoughts?
     
  15. MDT

    MDT Glock21Love

    170
    0
    Mar 24, 2003
    Claremore, OK
    I am confident that a pulseless dude with two bleeding holes won't get better regardless of what I do. CPR exposes me to his blood/body fluids and I don't want that risk. If I am put into this horrible situation, I can testify that my experience dictates that a pulseless (no signs of life) patient in the field isn't going to change. While I do understand why you suggested that you should try, I just don't think it is a good idea, medically or personally.
    Anyone in that situation will respond in the manner they see appropriate. You gotta make your own call.

    MDT
     
  16. MDT

    MDT Glock21Love

    170
    0
    Mar 24, 2003
    Claremore, OK
    After re-reading my last reply, I thought I should clarify. And again, this is only my opinion.

    1. If the scenario is you shot a guy who was trying to shoot you, and he was pulseless, my answer is the same. He's dead. His brainstem is only seconds away from figuring that out.

    2. If it was a good guy, and he's pulseless with penetrating thoracic trauma IN THE FIELD WITH NO MEDICAL BACKUP, he's dead.

    3. If this dude was breathing AND has a pulse, I would attempt to intervene...CAREFULLY. If I could safely apply pressure, torniquet, jaw thrust, etc. until EMS arrived, I would. The difference is signs of life in the field.

    Any thoughts?

    MDT
     
  17. nsb22

    nsb22 TEAM OAF

    748
    0
    Sep 17, 2003
    cornville!
    Here would be my response to the Judge:

    Well your Honor, I was already tending to my family. To leave them to treat the suspect would be like me leaving the scene of a cardiac arrest to go help some one with a cut finger. I am not supposed to leave on pt. to go care for another! We were taught this in school.

    Hopefully, that would work!
     
  18. LtTripMD

    LtTripMD Nuke & Pave

    58
    0
    Oct 18, 2002
    Upstate, NY
    i completely agree. perhaps i should change my previous post to say that the bad guy in this scenario should get *evalauted* if you have the medical training.

    i said "do your best", and that requires going over to find out what kind of condition he's in as a first step. after that, dead is dead.

    trip.
     
  19. G21FAN

    G21FAN Useless loser Millennium Member

    1,616
    7
    Apr 23, 1999
    Pell City, Alabama
    Not no, but H$LL NO! A attourny would make this out that you were guilty of making a mistake and tried to correct it. I've been in EMS 15 years and I will not stop to help off duty. Why? not my problem. Realisticaly, what are you going to do while waiting on a unit to roll up? Mouth-to mouth? I don't think so! I hate to say it, but Paramedics and EMTs rely on a myriad of equipment to do their job. Me and my family comes first! I learned the hard way. Twice.