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Serious question...

Discussion in 'Tactics and Training' started by OldArcher, May 22, 2010.

  1. OldArcher

    OldArcher Gospel Carrier

    May 6, 2010
    I have two Glocks, a 21 and 30. Also a Gemtech Blackside, and as barrels of both weapons are threaded (LWD, a superb company), have the ability to utilize my CCW, with either, AND use the Blackside, if necessary. The G30 is for every day carriage, while maintaining the G21 for "serious social difficulties," for when the the wheels fall off. Commonality of ammo and magazines, as well as M6Xs and Blackhawk fanny packs, is a definite plus.

    Now, to "the" question...

    I've pretty much relegated the 21 to situations that may or not be around my home for self defense, as in the case of civil disorder, like cities experienced in the time from the 1960s to the present. I found myself in the middle of a riot, when I got back from SE Asia in the early 1970s, and it was not a pleasant thing to experience.

    I've seen weapon's sights (like Aimpoint's Micro T-1) that can be mounted on a polymer(?) frame, attached to the weapon, above the slide, allowing usage of the sights(Ameriglo suppressor sights) as well, and allowing the rail below the slide to be still utilized for laser/light combos(as in M6X). Couple this with the Blackside, and 14 of Winchester PDX1, and you have a formidable piece of gear.

    If I go this route, making a civilian's special purpose weapon, I lose the ability for it to be concealable. I'm not King Kong, and though my clothes look like they're from Omar the tent maker, even my 48Short sport coats won't cover it easily...

    Now, would it be smart to assemble now, if ever, or go another route?

    What say you?

    Assemble and store, or go back to the drawing board?

    WHEN TSHTF, I'll have to E&E. My AO would NOT be survivable. Taking this into account, I eagerly await your answers and ideas...

    OldArcher, out...
    Last edited: May 22, 2010
  2. Personally, I think folks worry waaay too much about SHTF stuff, and to rig up a nice gun as a special purpose SHTF tool at the expense of general utility strikes me as questionable.

  3. Gallium

    Gallium CLM

    Mar 26, 2003
    SHTF situations can often be detected from a long ways off. I've survived three public riots (discontent with the government over gas prices) and three nasty riots at concerts with stampeding and many (hundreds) of shots fired in anger (to differentiate from the hundreds of rounds discharged as "gun salutes").

    Carry the G30 with the minimum amount of accouterments (less extra stuff = less stuff to fail), and leave a likewise configured G21 @ home or in the truck (mags from 21 work in the G30).

    If the crap really hits the fan (massive social unrest), I don't care what you have, any handgun is only going to buy you MINUTES before you lose. It's best to be able to read the tea leaves of social unrest.

  4. OldArcher

    OldArcher Gospel Carrier

    May 6, 2010
    I've been in two riots, one on the Left Coast, one in KC, of all places. First in uniform, second as civilian. First time, unarmed, second time, had a handgun, but came within seconds of having to use it- presented it, did not have to fire.

    My handguns, other than for sport, are a means to get back to the rifle or shotgun I shouldn't have put down in the first place. In the case of a special purpose weapon as described above, sound from a suppressor is NOT perfectly silent- only Hollywierd, or very carefully set-up systems combining special brewed powder/ammo combinations, purpose built weapons, and well built suppressors, combined with all air variables, ambient noise, etc. and ad nauseum, can create a real world "silencer." I've never heard or seen such in real life.

    I'm partially disabled. Making the most of a weapon, and having it portable enough, to give me an edge to go to ground, avoid discovery/capture/or death, is one the reasons I've even contemplated such a project- and the possible need for such a weapon.

    Threat assessment, contingency planning, and logistics are not new to me. Nor is force projection, or damage assessment. I'm partially disabled, not somebody trying to live out Jack Bauer fantasies.

    In all probability, I'm SOL for the long run. That's life, and dying's just a part of it. I'm not eager, but that's everybody's final destination. When, and how we get there, THAT may be something that we'll be able to determine for ourselves... I'm not a victim, and I won't go meekly, or quietly, into that long, dark, nigh...

    Every weapon I have, some now too heavy or bulky for me to carry into the boonies, have more than one configuration. Some are for ranges from CQB to 300m. Others out to 1k, or a bit beyond. If a scope goes bad, even for the long guns, I've tritium iron sights as back-ups. For the light weights, they can be tailored for 5.56 or 6.8SPC. Likewise, from Leupold tacticals to night vision. Or red dot collocated with flip-up iron sights. Shotgun? Same- whatever is needed. Force multipliers are not just for trained cadre, but for systems as well... All my weapons have specific, and general, ammo to take advantage of their capabilities, as well as their aiming devices...

    I'm looking at the heavily modified G21 as a tool for an old, gimpy, grumpy, grouchy guy that will never give-up, never give-in. One who'll take a full compliment of side boys with him- if necessary. I've spent my life taking care of other people- it's what I've always done, and will continue to do, as long as I can breathe, or use a weapon.

    Someday, I'll head out West, where I've offers to help set-up a security detail for ranchers and farmers, against what many believe may someday occur... As said, contingency planning... No longer a Big Dog, I'll have to sit on the porch, and have young pups trained to use my gear. So be it.

    Until then, I want to live long enough here, fulfill my responsibilities, and then follow the sun...

    The Glock 21, with the aforementioned mods, is but one possible tool, but as my health begins to deteriorate more, and there is no ready cure or remedy, I'll have to continue to look for alternatives...

    Mickey Mantle said, "If I'd known I was gonna live this long, I'd a takin' better care of myself." Shortly after his heart-lung-liver transplants, and just prior to his death...

    Me, I never figured to reach 22, and I'm just past 60...

    Knowing now, what I didn't then, reminds me of what R.A. Heinlein said- "Youth is wasted on the young." Amen.

    So, look at this as a challenge for an old guy with health problems. Just laying down, and dying, is NOT an option. If nothing else, when TSHTF, it'll be quite possible that there will be bad guys to send to the foot of the reincarnation line, say, as cockroaches, or to cleanse the gene pool...

    Think of yourself, or a friend, or a loved one, as disabled, or partially so, and what answer you could find, in a similar situation...

    OldArcher, out...
    Last edited: May 22, 2010
  5. Archer,

    Any good rifle/pistol combo will do fine for SHTF if you can shoot. If you can't shoot, well it won't matter either what you have. Fancy sights may help a bit but they can be a crutch to.

    Your SHTF gear is whatever you have when the ball rolls. It may be just the Glock and a long gun in the trunk, or a .38 or well whatever your daily gear is.

    What is more they, the government, may TAKE your dream gun away from you! Law and Order and all that. Don't tell me it's against the law to do that in your state cause LEOs have been known to go 'dumb' and do things they know are technicaly illegal.

    If you are really worried about SHTF, back up some extra food, cash, ammo, water, etc.... and find some safe places to drive to in the rural country. Just plan those things ahead and keep your ears open to the news. For if you fail to see it coming, you will just end up being one of those victims who didn't have a clue and it won't matter what sight is on your rifle. For you don't want to fight your way out of a riot. You want to be miles away and going in the opposite direction.

    Last edited: May 22, 2010
  6. degoodman

    degoodman Out of Columbus

    Jun 7, 2004
    Marysville, OH
    i'll echo what's been said above for the most part.

    Finding yourself in the middle of civil unrest is a bad bad scene, and one that is to be avoided at all costs. If you find yourself there, you're going to fight with what you have. But if it really is a riot type situation, and you have to fight your way out of it, the odds of your success are MINISCULE, no matter what you do to your guns. Listen hard to the voices that are tellnig you to be somewhere else if things get hairy in town, and be there before the real nastiness starts.

    That having been said, generally speaking the more crap you hang on a firearm, especially a handgun, the less reliable its going to be. this is doubly applicable to weight hanging on the barrel. If you want a SHTF handgun, take the G21, change the sights to the tritiums of your choice, maybe add a weapon mounted light, and call it a day. You're done with the gear end of the equation from a firearms perspective.

    The other thing I'll toss out there, is that if you do your job right, the firearm is the LEAST important piece of gear you'll have in a bug-out situation. your three biggest enemies are exposure, dehydration and starvation if you have to leave town for places unknown in a failure of civil order. so take a gun, and some spare ammo. But the bulk of your bug out bag needs to be dedicated to seasonally appropriate clothing and shelter, water and non-perishable food, plus the means of acquiring more of each of those from the field as necessary. A gun may be a part of that in the hunting role more than the personal protection role, so choose your SHTF weapon appropriately.
  7. MTPD


    Nov 9, 2005
    I've worked the street during 3 major riots and several smaller ones. The first one happened unexpectedly and all I had was a .38 and 18 rounds = Not a good feeling.

    In the others I had either a shotgun or an AR plus a handgun = not fun, but I felt more in control of the situation.

    I personally would consider a pistol (any pistol) a BUG and carry a rifle or shotgun in your vehicle for serious business. In my experience, rioters are afraid of long guns but don't pay much attention to pistols.

    But, if all you can have with you is a pistol, the bigger the pistol is in size the more effective the deterance factor. For example, a 7 1/2" .357 mag would be more likely to get their attention than a Ruger LCP.
    Last edited: May 29, 2010
  8. RyanNREMTP

    RyanNREMTP Inactive/Banned

    Jun 16, 2007
    Waco, Texas
    Another option is get another G21 and do whatever you want to with it.
  9. Uh.. MTPD, don't say that. There is someone here who will say there are no 'stats' to prove one size of weapon deters more than another just as no evidence racking a shotgun is a sound most people know, and all you are talking about is anecdotal evidence. Also they say anecdotal evidence is a form of stat.

    Just a warning!

  10. GreyEclipse

    GreyEclipse TheGreyEclipse

    Feb 18, 2010
    SHTF scenario and you're thinking about going out with only a pistol?

    My advice is to buy a rifle...

    Pistols should stay stock, no added garbage.
    Maybe a light, better sights or something along those lines.
  11. PhoneCop

    PhoneCop TeleDetective

    Jan 6, 2005
    San Antonio, TX
    One riot, one Ranger.

    Honestly, I think in bad situations the best firearms are the simplest. The fancier, the more batteries, the more modifications, the worse in my opinion.


    G17/G22/G21 5 or more factor mags, good flashlight, weapon mounted light.
    Shotgun, 00 buck, extended magazine, weapon mounted light.
    Rifle, AR 15 shorty and lots of mags.

    That's a good place to start.

    After that... who really knows.
    Last edited: May 30, 2010
  12. MTPD


    Nov 9, 2005
    Yep, KISS hardware is good. And the same goes for tactics.
    Last edited: May 31, 2010
  13. MTPD


    Nov 9, 2005
    10-4! :supergrin:
  14. Really? You've got about three differeent statments there, care to expand on who would say what on which statement? After all, a good understanding of stats allows one to make factual statements instead of just offering wild guesses, so those who want real information might want to talk with someone who knows what the actual facts are. Are you saying that there are stats on that sort of stuff, and you know what they are? What do you think there are stats on, and what do you think the stats say? Can you give us a link to a website that supports your position?:rofl:
    Last edited: May 31, 2010
  15. RenegadeGlocker


    Jul 8, 2001
    Pimping out a G21 seems like a waste of money to me.
  16. OldArcher

    OldArcher Gospel Carrier

    May 6, 2010
    I have severe disk disease- the little holes in the spine, where the nerves branch out to all areas of the body, are closing. My spine also has bits of bone flaking off, impinging various nerve bundles at the damnedest times- without rhyme or reason, and without warning. Pain can be severe, as if from an ice pick, to a long sustained electrical shock. At times, its as if I've been struck by a small, ball peen hammer.

    After 3 MRIs, the docs suggested counseling on how to deal with pain, and drugs. Since I take care of Mom, being the only son of two no longer married, I've the duty, and the honor, of taking care of her. Her med file is two inches thick, and presents some challenges. I cannot take meds that will impair me in any way.

    Family, always, comes first. When my Dad lay dying, I promised to take care of her. I have, and I will.

    Last week, I could cycle the slide of my Glocks w/o trouble. Yesterday, my left arm failed me, luckily, not permanently. I could not move the slide with my left hand. I had to shift my weapon to my left hand, and move the slide rearward, with my right hand. It is a portent of things to come, in my decreasing ability to operate weapons I've known, loved, and used for many years.

    I have ARs with LMT MRP uppers, in 5.56 and 6.8SPC. Modular out the wazoo, and I can't move as quickly, or with the precision I had for forty years. My Remington 870 Desert Tactical w/Blackhawk Knoxx Stock, topped by its Trijicon TX30 is resting quietly in its gunbag- too heavy for me to use with confidence. My CZ550s in .308, set-up to be 1km rifles, with appropriate optics and ammo, likewise, too damned heavy.

    Gentlemen, I am reduced to using what weapons I have left, to attempt to defend the woman who gave me life, and defend our home. I still have Beretta M9A1s, both with M6Xs and multiple 20rd Mag-Tec AFC magazines, loaded with SXTs. I also have my Glock 21SF and Glock 30. Both have laser/lights (1 TLR-2, 1 M6X), 13rd magazines, threaded barrels, and 1 Gemtech Blackside.

    I can still, for now, hit what I aim at, with my pistols. This means my range of engagement is still within my capabilities, for I know the distances within my house, the obstacles, and the angles involved.

    Why the Blackside? Mom is deaf in one ear, and cannot afford to lose what little hearing she has in her other ear. The Blackside eliminates muzzle flash, and reduces probability of my loosing my hearing- at least from my weapons. Too, if the house is the target of a home invasion, what little advantages I can get, I'll use... Oh, and Winchester's PDX1 ammo has a very nice low flash powder formula, something to consider when using the pistol that does not wear the suppressor.

    I've been reading another thread here, on Glock Talk, concerning COM or Zipper, or Mozambique, or whatever. Wish I had someone to take care of Mom, if she were in better health, to watch over and care for her, while taking such wonderful courses of training. Unfortunately, that won't happen. What little formal training, courtesy of the US Navy, back in 1969, isn't nearly on par with anything in any of those courses. What I know, I had to pick-up from buddies that were Marines, a few Rangers, a SEAL, and lots of LEOs, over the years. I was lucky, they were kind enough to pass on their experiences, as well as coach me on the range.

    As you can see from the above paragraph, this is woefully inadequate, against what may come crashing through my doors, or windows. All too often, men will be discharged from the service, after learning how to employ modern weapons. Likewise, those that grow-up on the mean streets, are gang affiliated, are becoming more savvy with weapons, and their employment. Not good, regardless of where you are...

    So, gentlemen, when you think I'm pimping out my Glocks, or should get a shotgun, or even move(Mom wants to die here, then be interred at Arlington National Cemetery, next to Dad), my options are severely limited... I have the ARs, and all the goodies. I have the shotgun. My AO is here, now, and for the foreseeable future.

    I've taken your words to heart, considered them, and agree that it might be unwise to mount a frame w/optics upon one of my Glocks. Being able to put such a piece of gear in a briefcase, would be difficult, at best- especially with the Blackside screwed on...

    I'm very seriously trying to come-up with suggestions that will meet with my apparently decreasing abilities, Mom's condition, and the area I'll have to defend. If I knew we were going to be hit, and when, I'd have Mom and the dogs in the station wagon, and we'd light a shuck outta there- pronto... (I'm here in the Northeast, and I miss my beloved Midwest and West badly...)

    So, now you know where I'm coming from. I'll fight, and if necessary, die defending her. I've been shot at before, and responded appropriately. I've had 60 pretty good years, ex-wife not withstanding. If it happens, I'll go out with side boys for a Viking funeral barge. Like Jim Morrison said, "Nobody gets out alive!" As the Chairman of the Board sang, "That's Life..."

    If you can, having read the above, come up with some suggestions that might slow down potential BGs, and knowing my limitations, I'd really appreciate it.

    Thanks for reading, and thanks, too, for any suggestions you may have...

    OldArcher, out...