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SBR, Suppressor, Full Auto

Discussion in 'GATE NFA/Class III' started by SIGShooter, Aug 22, 2010.

  1. SIGShooter

    SIGShooter Hucklebucks

    4,208
    0
    Jan 25, 2005
    I'm having my SBR built on a Colt LE6920 (MK18) with a suppressor.

    Heres my question…

    Can I have the Colt converted into a FA rifle? If so what needs to be done? If not, why?

    I know I have to do a tax stamp for the SBR and the suppressor however, do I need to do one for FA or can that be included in the building of the SBR?

    I appreciate your help and advice.
     
  2. Zak Smith

    Zak Smith 3Gunner Millennium Member

    502
    3
    Aug 25, 1999
    Fort Collins, CO, USA
    No, because the registry is closed to new machineguns. The only exception is if you are a Class 2 SOT, but if you were you'd know that situation already.
     


  3. SIGShooter

    SIGShooter Hucklebucks

    4,208
    0
    Jan 25, 2005
    Zak,

    A follow up question for you.

    There is a manufacturer that builds M4s that are full auto. New production and they market to LE and Mil. Am I able to buy a gun made by this manufacturer? If not, why?

    I'm still new to all of this stuff and I'm still learning.

    I appreciate your help and answers.
     
  4. Zak Smith

    Zak Smith 3Gunner Millennium Member

    502
    3
    Aug 25, 1999
    Fort Collins, CO, USA
    No - not a machinegun anyway, they are only available for sale to government entities or Class 2/3 dealers on a "LEO demo letter."

    For an individual to obtain a machinegun, that machinegun must have been registered prior to 5/19/86.

    See
    http://www.recguns.com/Sources/IIF1.html
    for tons of detail.
     
  5. SIGShooter

    SIGShooter Hucklebucks

    4,208
    0
    Jan 25, 2005
    Zak,

    Thank you.

    I appreciate your help and I appreciate GT having this GATE Forum as a tool for more learning!
     
  6. SIGShooter

    SIGShooter Hucklebucks

    4,208
    0
    Jan 25, 2005
    Zak,

    Thank you again for all the information you sent to me.

    Here's another question for you.

    Full auto sear:

    Can I buy one and register it with a tax stamp? Can it then be installed in a firearm of my choosing? Say this firearm is already a registered SBR what else would need to be done with it?

    Thank you.
     
  7. Zak Smith

    Zak Smith 3Gunner Millennium Member

    502
    3
    Aug 25, 1999
    Fort Collins, CO, USA
    Yes, if it is registered and transferable. The DIAS is considered a MG all by itself for purposes of NFA. Here is good information about DIASs http://www.quarterbore.com/nfa/dias.html

    I would just add that DIASs often have reliability issues.
     
  8. SIGShooter

    SIGShooter Hucklebucks

    4,208
    0
    Jan 25, 2005
    Zak,

    Again, I appreciate the help.

    Here's another question for you…

    I'm having my MK12 swapped over to a Colt LE6920 and will have a spare barrel with no upper. I'm having a MK18 built on another LE6920. Can I have the spare barrel cut to match my MK18 or would that fall under constructive possession of additional SBRs?

    I do have other AR rifles so I am concerned that having the spare barrel on hand would violate NFA rules.

    Thanks again.
     
  9. Zak Smith

    Zak Smith 3Gunner Millennium Member

    502
    3
    Aug 25, 1999
    Fort Collins, CO, USA
    Technically, the ATF advises you have an approved Form 1/4 prior to the acquisition of the parts required:
    http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/national-firearms-act-short-barreled-rifles-shotguns.html
     
  10. SIGShooter

    SIGShooter Hucklebucks

    4,208
    0
    Jan 25, 2005
    Sorry, I should have clarified my statement better...

    Form 1 is done and approved, engraving is done and rifle is at the manufacturer.

    I will have a spare barrel with no home (Spare barrel comes from different build). I wanted to have that barrel cut and matched to the MK18 as a spare barrel.

    Can I have that spare barrel, cut and matched to the MK18, on hand or does it violate NFA regs?

    Judging by reading your last bit of info it seems like it would unless I paid the SOT.
     
  11. Zak Smith

    Zak Smith 3Gunner Millennium Member

    502
    3
    Aug 25, 1999
    Fort Collins, CO, USA
    I don't have a cut and dried answer because I can't find an ATF letter specifically about that issue and there are indications on both sides from legal sources. On the one side you have the quote from the ATF letter I quoted above. On the other side you have TC vs. US,
    This post over on the guntrustlawyer blog goes into it a little bit
    http://www.guntrustlawyer.com/2009/08/florida-man-arrested-for-const.html
    with reference to a recent SBR constructive possession case.

    Without a clear answer, I would not recommend it. Even ATF letters seemingly contradict themselves from time to time.
     
  12. SIGShooter

    SIGShooter Hucklebucks

    4,208
    0
    Jan 25, 2005
    Zak,

    I have a new question for you/dilemma…

    My NFA paperwork is in for my SBR. My Lower has been engraved already.

    Upon further inspection of my lower (This is the first inspection/cleaning I have done due to work and travel). I noticed that the rear take down pin hole was milled incorrectly. I have contacted Colt and I am in the process of sending it back.

    Here's the question…

    My paperwork has already been submitted for my SBR. The lower is engraved. What happens if Colt says they cannot fix the rifle and they have to replace it?

    Thanks in advance!
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2011
  13. SIGShooter

    SIGShooter Hucklebucks

    4,208
    0
    Jan 25, 2005
    That's not a positive answer Zak! I prefer sunshine over doodoo!

    Is it possible for a manufacturer to make a new lower with the same serial number?
     
  14. Zak Smith

    Zak Smith 3Gunner Millennium Member

    502
    3
    Aug 25, 1999
    Fort Collins, CO, USA
    In weird cases like this, I recommend contacting an NFA lawyer or the ATF in writing.

    In this case, if it "becomes" an SBR before Colt replaces it, then they would in effect be destroying the SBR and producing a non-SBR lower with the same original Colt serial number, which is why I believe it would be a no-go in that scenario.
     
  15. SIGShooter

    SIGShooter Hucklebucks

    4,208
    0
    Jan 25, 2005
    I will be following up with my Trust lawyer.

    I appreciate the time that you put into this forum. Thank you!
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2011
  16. SIGShooter

    SIGShooter Hucklebucks

    4,208
    0
    Jan 25, 2005
    Zak,

    I wanted to do a follow up here in this thread...

    In regards to the issue I had with my lower being out of spec and the NFA process having been started:

    Very simple process (In case anyone ever goes through this)...

    1. You need to call the manufacturer and inform them of the situation.

    2. Be specific and ask if they plan on keeping the same serial number or if it is going to be changed.

    3. Standby for an answer from the manufacturer in regards to any changes that may occur.

    4. You must contact the BATFE and ask for the NFA branch.

    5. Provide the clerk with your serial number and ask for the name and extension of the examiner who is assigned to your item.

    6. Inform the examiner of the situation. Be honest and precise. Let them know you would like to "Put a hold on the paperwork" until the issue you're having gets sorted out.

    7. Once you have an answer from the manufacturer you have 2 routes you can take:
    a: The serial number will remain the same
    b: The serial number will change

    8. If the serial number is the same you call you examiner directly and let them know everything is good to go and nothing will change on the paperwork.

    9. If the serial number does change, request your paperwork be returned to you so you can make the changes accordingly.

    10. After all is said and done, return your paperwork directly to you examiner and standby for your approval.

    In case anyone is curious...

    My lower was out of spec. I returned it to Colt for inspection. They are some of the best CS to deal with if you ever need to. Extremely proffessional and exact. You'd be surprised what goes into the trouble shooting there. I know for a fact they tracked down the machine that milled my lower...interesting process to say the least.

    A question for you Zak:

    My form 1 is for a 10.5" barrel. Is that the only length barrel I can use or is it possible to use any SBR length upper with my approved lower?

    As always, I appreciate your help and the knowledge you pass on here!

    Thank you!
     
  17. Zak Smith

    Zak Smith 3Gunner Millennium Member

    502
    3
    Aug 25, 1999
    Fort Collins, CO, USA
    Good info on the process. It sounds pretty simple if it hasn't been approved yet. I wonder what would have happened if it had already gone through.

    On your other question, you need the Form 1 to reflect the configuration of the SBR, so send an amendment if you need to add a different upper length.
     
  18. SIGShooter

    SIGShooter Hucklebucks

    4,208
    0
    Jan 25, 2005

    According to the BATFE (Paraphrasing):

    If it did get approved and the lower was going to be replaced with a new/different serial number then it would have to be destroyed per BATFE or (Fed) regs. I believe the correct term the examiner used was "deactivated".

    What that entails I couldn't tell you because I have not looked it up. I do know that you have to remove it from the NFA Register first and then do the destruction.

    After that, you're on the hook for another 2 bills and another waiting period.

    HINT HINT HINT EVERYONE!!! INSPECT YOUR WEAPON THOROUGHLY AT THE TIME OF PURCHASE!!!

    As for the Form 1:

    Currently the SBR is a 10.5"

    I wanted to get a 12.5 and 14.5 inch upper as well. I would need to send in an amendment each time I get a new upper? Once the amendment is in then does the SBR stay that length until I send in a new amendment?

    I think I'm understanding that correctly. Sorry for the explanation in the form of a question.
     
  19. Zak Smith

    Zak Smith 3Gunner Millennium Member

    502
    3
    Aug 25, 1999
    Fort Collins, CO, USA