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Say bye bye to pursuits in Southern Indiana

Discussion in 'Cop Talk' started by Kadetklapp, Sep 19, 2011.

  1. Kadetklapp

    Kadetklapp Methberry PD

    Jan 2, 2007

    Long of the short of it is, Knox County Deputy is chasing a car which refused to stop for an infraction, rear-ends or t-bones an uninvolved motorist which kills an unrestrained four-year old child from head injuries sustained. You can bet this cop is toast, even though the neglect of the van driver and the criminal actions of the fleeing perp are pretty much more responsible, the typical Hoosier mindset is to ignore all that, focus on the "killer cop" and throw him in prison, throw away his career, and the life of his family.
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2011
  2. This is terrible in more ways than one.

    Prayers sent for the child. RIP little one.

    Prayers sent for the officer.

  3. S&WM&PAR15T&G34


    Nov 5, 2007
    Sounds like the officer failed to clear the intersection. We all know just because we are using lights and a siren it doesn't mean we can run a red light. This is a sorry case for everyone.
  4. Brucev


    Jul 19, 2009
    Agree with this.
  5. S. Kelly

    S. Kelly

    Jan 31, 2000
    Boston MA
    NOTHING good comes from a pursuit.
  6. dano1427


    Jan 3, 2001
    Is that including the apprehension of those crapbag felons that are fleeing the Police?
  7. Jeff82

    Jeff82 NRA Benefactor CLM

    Feb 25, 2002
    Not true. Most pursuits are uneventful and result in the perp getting caught.

    RIP Little Guy.
  8. CAcop


    Jul 21, 2002
    If you use a tool too much it will get taken away from you.

    Around here 30-40 years ago it was known if you mouthed off to an officer you got an ass kicking. Why do you think that doesn't happen now?

    Stories like this make me think that pursuits are best left for cases when you are almost justified for shooting the suspect. A pursuit that begins with a vehicle code infraction and ends with a death of an univolved person will have consequences. And they will not be positive. If you start one over a stop light violation for God's sake drive easy and don't be afraid to let the suspect go. If you fail to clear an intersection and T-bone someone you just might end up in criminal court. There have been a few officers charged and some of those convicted of manslaughter for not using due regard. I don't care home many times someone tells me I have to catch the bad guy no matter what. They aren't going to be the one explaining themselves to a jury. The people have spoken. Give them what they want. If they don't like it they can make it known on election day.
  9. boomhower


    Feb 14, 2010
    North Carolina
    Thing is 99.9% of the time they aren't fleeing because they are afraid of getting charged with running a light. They are afraid they are going to get charged for the stolen car, stolen gun, outstanding murder warrant, body in the trunk, etc. etc. etc. Three months a local chased a car that had run a stop sign. That's it, just a stop sign. Car fled and he pursed. A ways down the road the guy jump and ran from the car. He went to pursue but was stopped because he heard something. What he found was the kidnapped soon to be rape and murder victim in the trunk of the car. Regardless of the reason the pursuite starts, you have to engage with due safety for others. Clear your intersections, etc.
  10. razdog76

    razdog76 Heavy Mettle

    Sep 26, 2007

    This officer apparently didn't clear the intersection, and your best response is this? Could there possibly be another reason the violator wasn't stopping; warrant(s), contraband?

    I won't even touch the part that if the child was properly in his car seat, he would likely not have been injured.
  11. DaBigBR

    DaBigBR No Infidels!

    Oct 28, 2005
    Circling the wagons.
    Like it or not, CACop is pretty much spot on, at least in concept. We're not in a business where the ends get to justify the means, as much as we would like them to some time. And realize, this is coming from a guy that works for a department that lets us chase for traffic violations, and I do so with complete and total knowledge that we have just enough rope to hang ourselves with.

    FWIW, I had a motorcycle take off on me this weekend over a speeding violation. Valid, registered, insured, sober, etc. Ran because he was "scared" and had just enough room to think he could make it. Two miles and less than two minutes later, his bike was wrecked and he was in custody. Had he, or I smoked a pedestrian or a passing car, it would obviously not have been good.
  12. razdog76

    razdog76 Heavy Mettle

    Sep 26, 2007
    Well, there are considerations.

    I am fortunate enough to work for a department with the CALEA model pursuit policy which was also adopted by OPOTA.

    In it are provisions as when to terminate a pursuit, such as driving past a school when it is letting out, versus driving past it at 0230 in the morning.

    I apologize for forgetting that not everyone has the same perspective as I do. I just disagree with the no pursuit policies many agencies adopted about ten years ago.

    At least in central Ohio they seem to have returned to something that allows the job to get done, taking some reasonable precautions, and improved training to get the pursuit ended ASAP with Pursuit Termination Techniques.
  13. CAcop


    Jul 21, 2002
    My agency losened our pursuit policy. We used to not be able to pursue for equipment violations. Now we can. Am I going to go balls to the wall for that? Nope. We mostly have people run because they have dope on them or in their car. Or a cheesey warrant for hug, er, drug court. Remember CA has the second most lawyers per capita in the US. What could possibly be an easier payout that suing a PD over a pursuit that ended in the death of an innocent? A death as a result of the police not using due regard. Like it or not we will get judged in court over the results of our actions versus our intent. One of our guys lost control and took out a bus bench at 0300. What would that bus bench look like at 1500?
  14. Sounds like the guy that fled, caused a 4 year old to get killed. That should be on the criminal. The USSC tends to support police doing their job vs bad guys.

    IMHO best that can be done is blame the criminal for his acts that thru causation killed a child and put others at risk.

    One way to not chase so many bad guys is for judges/courts to set examples of those that flee police. Then those that flee will be known to be all or nothing criminals.
  15. boomhower


    Feb 14, 2010
    North Carolina
    While I agree the offender fleeing and the unrestrained child are both factors, if the Officer did blow the stop sign he's pretty much screwed. You HAVE to clear your intersections.
  16. larry_minn

    larry_minn Silver Member Millennium Member

    Dec 16, 1999
    Sad situation.

    Personally I feel the act of running from the Police is it. It should not matter what the Officer orig. hit lights for. If you run, you have commited a host of crimes, (off top of head) "failure to obey lawful order, speeding, endangerment,"
    The person running should be responsible for any injuries/damage caused by them OR pursuit. Then the courts pile on charges.

    IMO that would do more to STOP dangerous chases.
  17. shootindave


    Feb 15, 2007
    I smell brass.
  18. State_Trooper_OSP

    State_Trooper_OSP Senior Trooper

    Dec 3, 2000
    West Linn, Oregon
  19. OLY-M4gery


    Nov 7, 2001
    Southern WI
    Yes, pursuits are fraught with peril.

    You are responsible for your actions, even during a pursuit.

    But, in places that have very strict pursuit policies, more people run from them knowing the police won't pursue. That makes it less safe for the public.

    Also in places with very strict pursuit policies, it seems the police driving during pursuits that are allowed to continue, is actually worse than agencies that have officers with more pursuit experience.

    Pursuits should be run like any other "use of force", escelate or disengage.

    If 2 minutes into the pursuit it's not "worth it" to authorize/use spikes then it's not "worth it" to continue the pursuit.

    If 5 minutes in spikes have been ineffective and it's not "worth it" to PIT the suspect vehicle it's not "worth it" to continue the pursuit.

    Etc, etc, etc, pursuits where the police just follow behind w/o taking any action to stop the suspect from fleeing are not well thought out.

    Just like during a pursuit, the primary officer, and the responsible supervisor, should be assessing whether it is worth it to continue the pursuit based on the seriousness of the violation, whether or not the offender can be caught some other way, road, traffic, weather conditions, etc. etc. At any time that pursuit can be called of by either the supervisor or the pursuing officer.
  20. larry_minn

    larry_minn Silver Member Millennium Member

    Dec 16, 1999
    I knew many people in my younger days who would have "run from the Police" except for one thing. They KNEW the Police would chase, other cities would come over to help and when they caught him... Lets just say the smart thing would be for them to stop in a very public area and give up.

    People do trip, fall into squad car, forget to duck head.......

    Plus they might as well sell the car. From then on every time that car seen they will get a chat.

    I recall one guy who tried to run. He was faster but the radio was even faster. After that he couldn't go 2mph over speed limit or he would get pulled over. When he got pulled over a couple hundred miles from home the Officer was very nice until he got the info on his running. It went from "Sir you were doing 65 in a 55 but we can call it 60" To. "Here is your ticket for 65 in a 55 press hard/three copies" (not quotes but how he explained it)

    If I know they didn't get my lic plate, know they won't chase, was a criminal... WHY would I stop?