Romney won the debate - but

Discussion in 'Political Issues' started by G19G20, Oct 4, 2012.


  1. They inserted themselves into healthcare and costs have gone through the stratosphere (Medicare).

    They did it in higher education and costs have gone through the stratosphere.



    I know I'm missing a few here.
     

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  2. You'd phase me out, like every other deduction.

    Medicare D was terrible. Not the fact that it was unfunded, just the fact that Medicare was expanded.

    The HSA was a by product to lower costs. It has nothing to do with Medicare.

    It allows me to buy insurance with a lower annual premium. But what does it matter? Its my insurance plan and you lied when you said I could keep it.

    As for the tax savings, what business is it of yours ? My taxes run in the 6 figures. Don't you think you could let me keep this $2500 or so in tax savings?

    Ooops! No? Is that yet another tax increase you slipped under the radar?

    Too frickin bad? You people really despise people taking care of their own retirement don't you? It's my money in that account. Not yours.

    Actually, it was several thousand dollars. More stealth tax increases.

    But again, what does it matter? You said I could keep my plan, now you tell me "too frickin bad".

    Which is it?
     

    #342 certifiedfunds, Oct 11, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2012
  3. It is not an option. You darn well know it. It wasn't pre-Ocare, it won't be with O-Care, it wouldn't be in without O-Care (if repealed). So why keep harping on an irrelevant point?

    No and Yes.

    No ... It DOES happen. People got sick or injured ALL THE TIME and did not have insurance. Seriously? It might have been the 22 year old. It might instead have been the 45 year old diabetic without insurance because of pre-existing. Same difference.

    Yes .. you are exactly right that it forces people to get insurance because they CAN'T PLAN illness or injury. Yes ... you are right the statistically, younger folks consume less health care. Yes ... you are right that older people consume more. Yes ... that is the exact point of the mandate. Yes ... gambling and buying insurance only when you need it doesn't work and the mandate is PRECISELY (as you wrote) is intended to/designed "to force the 22 year old into the system to pay for healthcare" he WILL be using AND to mitigate the costs incurred by insurance companies to cover their more expensive customers ( on average older).
     
  4. I've already explained the concept to you. It is a macro-economic effect of motivating that not to happen (i.e.,. to pay the fine). You aren't winning by being purposely obtuse.:wavey:
     
  5. Another strawman. You aren't providing more healthcare. People are already getting it (before Obamacare). There will be no net increase in people receiving care, only a change in the manner (i.e., less costly) in which they receive it.

    Again ... purposefully obtuse arguments don't make you look too sharp.

    Neither does mucking up and clogging the thread by making one-liner posts to be cute.
     
  6. See response (above) to your other one-liner post above that.
     
    #346 douggmc, Oct 11, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2012
  7. Ruble Noon

    Ruble Noon "Cracker"

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    So a $600 fine will cover the medical expenses of getting hit by a bus?
     
  8. Strawman (alot this evening). Your argument (if it were valid) is debatable anyway. Yes ... there are plenty of bureaucratic, costly government programs.

    This says nothing of the fact that Obamacare being portrayed as a huge government takeover of health care is nonsense. It is, at its core, basically one new regulation on a private industry ("the mandate") which also is in turn a humongous boon to the same private industry (do you remember them opposing Obamacare) in terms if a vast increase of paying customers.
     
    #348 douggmc, Oct 11, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2012
  9. You're revamping the healthcare system. Make it an option.

    Allowing anyone to show up at the hospital and receive services regardless of ability to pay is a big part of the problem. Stop it.

    He will not be using it. Ask an actuary. They're really sharp folks. It is one of the most difficult professional licensure examinations out there.

    You're taxing young people. How many 22 year olds are "upper class"? They aren't. They're lower and middle class.

    Oops! Not a tax on the lower and middle class? Say it ain't so!

    If Obamacare is designed to lower costs, why the need for all this new money?
     
  10. Right ... and then "uninserted" themselves via repeal of Glass Steagall ... thereby allowing banks to over leverage themselves with junk and risky paper ... almost resulting in total destruction of our country.
     
  11. :rofl:
     
  12. Ruble Noon

    Ruble Noon "Cracker"

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    That's bull Sh##.
     
  13. What a bunch of baloney. The higher costs of Medicare are almost entirely due to demographics. Combine that with the perverse system of denial of coverage in the private market due to pre-existing conditions and folks like the aforemenioned "22 year old" choosing to gamble .... leading to hospitals passing on unpaid medical debt the us.

    There are many studies that account for Medicare as a wonderful success ... especially if you don't ONLY count dollars.
     
  14. Strawman not.

    What about all these folks the socialists whine about falling through the cracks?

    What about the people you were mentioning who delay getting care because they're uninsured? Were they getting care when they were delaying care? Is that how this works.

    How does it work in the UK? Canada? They have less healthcare than they need. What happens?

    One liner posts keep things cleaner.
     
  15. Nonsense .. you are lying or tax illiterate. You didn't save 2500, you REDUCED YOUR TAXABLE INCOME by 2500. Big difference. My guess is you can't even quantify the actual amount in "tax savings".

    There is no tax increase. You will (and this isn't even carved in stone yet) lose further opportunity to decrease your taxable income by 2500 by shuffling that amount into the HSA. Two totally different things.

    You CAN keep your health care plan. You probably will not be able to keep your HSA (in the manner you do today). Two different things.
     
  16. Ruble Noon

    Ruble Noon "Cracker"

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    So, what if the guy doesn't pay the fine? Who pays for his coverage then? Remember, there is no penalty for not paying the fine.
     
  17. Prove me wrong. What else is it?
     
  18. Weren't you lecturing someone on macroeconomics upthread? And now this willful ignorance?

    :rofl:

    What you have in the current healthcare system is a textbook case of government money inflating the market, thanks to Medicare. When you subsidize the healthcare of the largest consumers, prices rise.

    Medicare, government money, is what caused this situation. More government money will make it worse.

    Ultimately you can't give everyone all the healthcare they want. We simply can't "make" enough. It has to be rationed like any other resource.

    The choice then becomes, who or what will do the rationing. Under the socialist plan, political appointees will do the rationing.
     
  19. Well, they'll take it out of the Earned Income Tax Credit welfare payment they were going to get.:rofl:
     
  20. Ruble Noon

    Ruble Noon "Cracker"

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    1. Retiree Reserve Trust Fund (Section 111(d), p. 61)
    2. Grant program for wellness programs to small employers (Section 112, p. 62)
    3. Grant program for State health access programs (Section 114, p. 72)
    4. Program of administrative simplification (Section 115, p. 76)
    5. Health Benefits Advisory Committee (Section 223, p. 111)
    6. Health Choices Administration (Section 241, p. 131)
    7. Qualified Health Benefits Plan Ombudsman (Section 244, p. 138)
    8. Health Insurance Exchange (Section 201, p. 155)
    9. Program for technical assistance to employees of small businesses buying Exchange coverage (Section 305(h), p. 191)
    10. Mechanism for insurance risk pooling to be established by Health Choices Commissioner (Section 306(b), p. 194)
    11. Health Insurance Exchange Trust Fund (Section 307, p. 195)
    12. State-based Health Insurance Exchanges (Section 308, p. 197)
    13. Grant program for health insurance cooperatives (Section 310, p. 206)
    14. “Public Health Insurance Option” (Section 321, p. 211)
    15. Ombudsman for “Public Health Insurance Option” (Section 321(d), p. 213)
    16. Account for receipts and disbursements for “Public Health Insurance Option” (Section 322(b), p. 215)
    17. Telehealth Advisory Committee (Section 1191 (b), p. 589)
    18. Demonstration program providing reimbursement for “culturally and linguistically appropriate services” (Section 1222, p. 617)
    19. Demonstration program for shared decision making using patient decision aids (Section 1236, p. 648)
    20. Accountable Care Organization pilot program under Medicare (Section 1301, p. 653)
    21. Independent patient-centered medical home pilot program under Medicare (Section 1302, p. 672)
    22. Community-based medical home pilot program under Medicare (Section 1302(d), p. 681)
    23. Independence at home demonstration program (Section 1312, p. 718)
    24. Center for Comparative Effectiveness Research (Section 1401(a), p. 734)
    25. Comparative Effectiveness Research Commission (Section 1401(a), p. 738)
    26. Patient ombudsman for comparative effectiveness research (Section 1401(a), p. 753)
    27. Quality assurance and performance improvement program for skilled nursing facilities (Section 1412(b)(1), p. 784)
    28. Quality assurance and performance improvement program for nursing facilities (Section 1412 (b)(2), p. 786)
    29. Special focus facility program for skilled nursing facilities (Section 1413(a)(3), p. 796)
    30. Special focus facility program for nursing facilities (Section 1413(b)(3), p. 804)
    31. National independent monitor pilot program for skilled nursing facilities and nursing facilities (Section 1422, p. 859)
    32. Demonstration program for approved teaching health centers with respect to Medicare GME (Section 1502(d), p. 933)
    33. Pilot program to develop anti-fraud compliance systems for Medicare providers (Section 1635, p. 978)
    34. Special Inspector General for the Health Insurance Exchange (Section 1647, p. 1000)
    35. Medical home pilot program under Medicaid (Section 1722, p. 1058)
    36. Accountable Care Organization pilot program under Medicaid (Section 1730A, p. 1073)
    37. Nursing facility supplemental payment program (Section 1745, p. 1106)
    38. Demonstration program for Medicaid coverage to stabilize emergency medical conditions in institutions for mental diseases (Section 1787, p. 1149)
    39. Comparative Effectiveness Research Trust Fund (Section 1802, p. 1162)
    40. “Identifiable office or program” within CMS to “provide for improved coordination between Medicare and Medicaid in the case of dual eligibles” (Section 1905, p. 1191)
    41. Center for Medicare and Medicaid Innovation (Section 1907, p. 1198)
    42. Public Health Investment Fund (Section 2002, p. 1214)
    43. Scholarships for service in health professional needs areas (Section 2211, p. 1224)
    44. Program for training medical residents in community-based settings (Section 2214, p. 1236)
    45. Grant program for training in dentistry programs (Section 2215, p. 1240)
    46. Public Health Workforce Corps (Section 2231, p. 1253)
    47. Public health workforce scholarship program (Section 2231, p. 1254)
    48. Public health workforce loan forgiveness program (Section 2231, p. 1258)
    49. Grant program for innovations in interdisciplinary care (Section 2252, p. 1272)
    50. Advisory Committee on Health Workforce Evaluation and Assessment (Section 2261, p. 1275)
    51. Prevention and Wellness Trust (Section 2301, p. 1286)
    52. Clinical Prevention Stakeholders Board (Section 2301, p. 1295)
    53. Community Prevention Stakeholders Board (Section 2301, p. 1301)
    54. Grant program for community prevention and wellness research (Section 2301, p. 1305)
    55. Grant program for research and demonstration projects related to wellness incentives (Section 2301, p. 1305)
    56. Grant program for community prevention and wellness services (Section 2301, p. 1308)
    57. Grant program for public health infrastructure (Section 2301, p. 1313)
    58. Center for Quality Improvement (Section 2401, p. 1322)
    59. Assistant Secretary for Health Information (Section 2402, p. 1330)
    60. Grant program to support the operation of school-based health clinics (Section 2511, p. 1352)
    61. Grant program for nurse-managed health centers (Section 2512, p. 1361)
    62. Grants for labor-management programs for nursing training (Section 2521, p. 1372)
    63. Grant program for interdisciplinary mental and behavioral health training (Section 2522, p. 1382)
    64. “No Child Left Unimmunized Against Influenza” demonstration grant program (Section 2524, p. 1391)
    65. Healthy Teen Initiative grant program regarding teen pregnancy (Section 2526, p. 1398)
    66. Grant program for interdisciplinary training, education, and services for individuals with autism (Section 2527(a), p. 1402)
    67. University centers for excellence in developmental disabilities education (Section 2527(b), p. 1410)
    68. Grant program to implement medication therapy management services (Section 2528, p. 1412)
    69. Grant program to promote positive health behaviors in underserved communities (Section 2530, p. 1422)
    70. Grant program for State alternative medical liability laws (Section 2531, p. 1431)
    71. Grant program to develop infant mortality programs (Section 2532, p. 1433)
    72. Grant program to prepare secondary school students for careers in health professions (Section 2533, p. 1437)
    73. Grant program for community-based collaborative care (Section 2534, p. 1440)
    74. Grant program for community-based overweight and obesity prevention (Section 2535, p. 1457)
    75. Grant program for reducing the student-to-school nurse ratio in primary and secondary schools (Section 2536, p. 1462)
    76. Demonstration project of grants to medical-legal partnerships (Section 2537, p. 1464)
    77. Center for Emergency Care under the Assistant Secretary for Preparedness and Response (Section 2552, p. 1478)
    78. Council for Emergency Care (Section 2552, p 1479)
    79. Grant program to support demonstration programs that design and implement regionalized emergency care systems (Section 2553, p. 1480)
    80. Grant program to assist veterans who wish to become emergency medical technicians upon discharge (Section 2554, p. 1487)
    81. Interagency Pain Research Coordinating Committee (Section 2562, p. 1494)
    82. National Medical Device Registry (Section 2571, p. 1501)
    83. CLASS Independence Fund (Section 2581, p. 1597)
    84. CLASS Independence Fund Board of Trustees (Section 2581, p. 1598)
    85. CLASS Independence Advisory Council (Section 2581, p. 1602)
    86. Health and Human Services Coordinating Committee on Women’s Health (Section 2588, p. 1610)
    87. National Women’s Health Information Center (Section 2588, p. 1611)
    88. Centers for Disease Control Office of Women’s Health (Section 2588, p. 1614)
    89. Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality Office of Women’s Health and Gender-Based Research (Section 2588, p. 1617)
    90. Health Resources and Services Administration Office of Women’s Health (Section 2588, p. 1618)
    91. Food and Drug Administration Office of Women’s Health (Section 2588, p. 1621)
    92. Personal Care Attendant Workforce Advisory Panel (Section 2589(a)(2), p. 1624)
    93. Grant program for national health workforce online training (Section 2591, p. 1629)
    94. Grant program to disseminate best practices on implementing health workforce investment programs (Section 2591, p. 1632)
    95. Demonstration program for chronic shortages of health professionals (Section 3101, p. 1717)
    96. Demonstration program for substance abuse counselor educational curricula (Section 3101, p. 1719)
    97. Program of Indian community education on mental illness (Section 3101, p. 1722)
    98. Intergovernmental Task Force on Indian environmental and nuclear hazards (Section 3101, p. 1754)
    99. Office of Indian Men’s Health (Section 3101, p. 1765)
    100. Indian Health facilities appropriation advisory board (Section 3101, p. 1774)
    101. Indian Health facilities needs assessment workgroup (Section 3101, p. 1775)
    102. Indian Health Service tribal facilities joint venture demonstration projects (Section 3101, p. 1809)
    103. Urban youth treatment center demonstration project (Section 3101, p. 1873)
    104. Grants to Urban Indian Organizations for diabetes prevention (Section 3101, p. 1874)
    105. Grants to Urban Indian Organizations for health IT adoption (Section 3101, p. 1877)
    106. Mental health technician training program (Section 3101, p. 1898)
    107. Indian youth telemental health demonstration project (Section 3101, p. 1909)
    108. Program for treatment of child sexual abuse victims and perpetrators (Section 3101, p. 1925)
    109. Program for treatment of domestic violence and sexual abuse (Section 3101, p. 1927)
    110. Native American Health and Wellness Foundation (Section 3103, p. 1966)
    111. Committee for the Establishment of the Native American Health and Wellness Foundation (Section 3103, p. 1968)
     

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