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Robbery caught on tape.. real sawed off scattergun

Discussion in 'Tactics and Training' started by Deaf Smith, Jun 4, 2010.

  1. Now this guy had a REAL sawed off shotgun.

    But notice how he handles it. I feel there were many opportunities to either draw on him or take it away from him H2H.

    Watch the 37 second version. No commercials or anything.

  2. degoodman

    degoodman Out of Columbus

    Jun 7, 2004
    Marysville, OH
    If you were set on fighting the guy, there were certainly a few opportunities to do so. But to my eyes, there was never an opportunity to draw, without going hands on the shotgun first. Especially if you were right handed, any belt level draw was going to get seen, and interrupted with a shotgun blast at contact distance.

    But if you were going to do that, you had better be ready to go all the way. the clerk was fish in a barrel if the BG started shooting. If you were going to fight, you had to control the muzzle of that shotgun, or go for an outright disarm, either as part of, or preceeding your draw. If you didn't gain control of the shotty first, I see you as body bag filler in that situation.

    The other observation is that the BG in this case was a pro. He was calm cool and collected all the way through the incident. Getting inside the OODA loop of someone that's "on his game" is that much tougher. That video was :37 long, and that BG was in and out in less than 30, with a couple packs of smokes taboot. I don't see this one as a no-win situation by a damn sight, but the window you'd have to get through to come out on top isn't all that big here either.

  3. Well degoodman, it said today the 'pro' was arrested. 20 year old guy.

    Glad he is of the street.

  4. Gallium

    Gallium CLM

    Mar 26, 2003
    I was gonna bet some $$ that he had an association with the place. Either a relative who works/ed there, or he hangs out there a bit, or worked there, etc...

  5. degoodman

    degoodman Out of Columbus

    Jun 7, 2004
    Marysville, OH
    I didn't read the rest of it, but 20 is plenty old to be a criminal pro. Its not like you need to be 15 years old and have a work permit to start.

    Good riddance to bad rubbish, if the courts follow through and actually stick this guy with some time.
  6. Andrewsky


    May 28, 2004
    Isn't that Joran Van Der Sloot?
  7. MTPD


    Nov 9, 2005
    There was one good opportunity to draw from a pocket and shoot while the BG was behind the counter as the BG looked away briefly to take some cigarettes. Then again as the BG was walking away, and a 3rd time when the BG was walking towards the door with his back turned.

    I may be wrong, but it didn't look like the BG had his finger on the trigger most of the time, plus he switched hands. Regardless, he could have been taken out by a victim who was armed and knew what he was doing. It was my impression that the BG didn't handle the gun like an experienced "gunman", nor did he look "ready" for armed resistance.
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2010
  8. You guys notice he carried the gun by the receiver part of the time and not with his hand on the grip? Hard to fire the gun that way.. and that gives you time.

    Bit of a post script...

    UPDATE 04:15 PM 06/04/10 - Longview Police Detectives have made an arrest in the June 3rd robbery of the EZ Mart convenience store at 1501 Pine Tree Road.

    Joshua Todd Murray, 20, of Longview, was arrested early Thursday afternoon pursuant to an arrest warrant issued by Judge David Brabham of the 188th District Court.

    As of this time, Murray has not been charged with the second EZ Mart robbery at the same location that occurred on June 4th, but additional charges are likely.

    Murray's birthday is in five days, June 9th.


    And if the shotgun IS a real one and IS sawed off, that's a Federal Crime!

    And we can say, "happy birthday" to him in jail for years to come!

  9. I might be looking at this wrong but it didn't seem like the guy was threatening the store clerk. Never pointed the shotgun at him.
    Seemed fairly relaxed.
    If it were me behind the counter I would have offered him some smokes or chewing gum on his way out and would have been glad he didn't kill me or me kill him.
    I think this is one of those times when give him the money and don't do any heroics would make sense.
  10. glock37gap


    Jun 3, 2010
    Summerville, SC
    just a question from a noob. the bg appeared very calm and did not appear to want to shoot the clerk. with this being the case wouldn't it be better to do was the clerk did and just give the bg the money rather than risk trying to draw with a shooty being so close?
  11. MTPD


    Nov 9, 2005
    This is just my opinion, based on several civilian incidents where I was almost murdered, and numerous felony robbery-murder investigations & arrests as a cop: When confronted by armed felons there is no way to know if they are going to murder you or not until it's too late. That being the case, it's my personal opinion that armed felons should be taken out at the first good opportunity.
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2010
  12. Yes. And read Jim S. post above yours. No need to start a gunfight here. The BG is the typical armed robber, using the weapon as a threat to gain compliance. That is why the standard default to an armed robbery, according to virtually all the experts and research in the field, should be to comply unless/until there are indications that the BG is a killer instead of a robber. Watch what is going on, try not to make it worse than it already is.
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2010
  13. MTPD


    Nov 9, 2005
    There you go again, advising people to meekly hand over their money and hope for the best (which I call the pink rabbit's foot syndrome).

    And SURPRISE!!! that's exactly what you have been saying you never do.
    :upeyes: :rofl: :upeyes:

    Let me explain this for others, since I know you are beyond understanding. There is no way to know ahead of time if an armed robber is intending to murder you (the witness) or not. That being the case, it's my opinion that all armed robbers should be considered potential murderers and treated accordingly.

    Armed robbers, while probably not geniuses, aren't totally stupid. They aren't going to warn you ahead of time that they are going to kill you. And once they start the killing it will most likely be too late to do anything but die. That's why my advice (which is specifically for those who refuse to be victims) is to take out armed robbers at the first good opportunity.

    David, on the other hand, being a book & statistics guy instead of a street guy, mistakenly thinks you are always going to get some kind of real obvious murder-warning ahead of time. And more than that, he thinks that after issuing the warning the murderer is going be stupid enough to drop his guard and give you the time and opportunity to resist. Experienced high-crime-area street cops know better, book guys don't.

    My first encounter with armed felons taught me an unforgetable lesson since they turned out to be a gang of rapist-murderers. I resisted and my date and I survived uninjured. Their previous victims did the David-thing (didn't resist) and they didn't survive uninjured. In fact, the girl didn't survive at all and the guy just barely did with multiple knife wounds.

    But if you want to trust in dumb luck (instead of your gun and shooting ability) for survival, go ahead and do it David's way. It's your life you are risking.
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2010
  14. And there you go again, confusing a default position that has been shown to be the best for most situations like this with hoping for the best. Anyone with any sense is going to do what they hope is the best. Anything else is rather questionable. But the default position of initial compliance is not "meekly hand over their money."
    And sadly, it's no surprise that you have again mis-stated my position, in spite of numerous corrections by myself and others over quite a long period of time. That you continue to do so is pretty clear evidence of a problem on your part.
    And your solution seems to be since we don't know what small fraction of a percent will try to murder us we should engage in a course of action that starts a gunfight whether it is needed or not. Just doesn't seem very smart, which is probably why virtually every LE organization, every trade group, most research, and so on says initial compliance is the best alternative. Strange how all those folks with verified history and background in the field say one thing, but you say something totally opposite.
    Let's remember that David's street experience has been pretty well verified, while your claims have been pretty much rejected by most all the LEOs on this forum, AFAIK.
    And once again we see that you have to make up a position rather than deal with the facts. David has not said that and does not think that. More MTPDFantasyland.
  15. MTPD


    Nov 9, 2005
    Well, there you go again, David, admitting that your "default position" is compliance. Unfortunately, if your armed robber turns out to be a murderer, you aren't going to get to my default position except by dumb luck, because you will have foolishly passed up all the good opportunities to drop the BG until it's too late.

    To clarify my default position, it's to drop armed robbers (and all other armed felons) at the first good opportunity.
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2010
  16. ubersoldat


    Oct 20, 2009
    Ahwatukee AZ
  17. beatcop


    Aug 13, 2003
    New England
    C'mon, as Ronald Reagan said, "There you go again!"

    We've beaten this to a bloody pulp before...talked about the "tells" that indicate violence is imminent, the "averages", the lack of knowledge of the offender's "training and experience"...and so on.

    Yeah, if you can stomp a cockroach with safety, go for it. However the dynamics of an armed encounter are often a little deeper than first glance.

    If you have no training & experience (police,.mil, real experience, etc), shooting ability (actually verified through competition, combat, or a recognized qualification course), don't be a hero and escalate a situation that appears to be playing out "as usual".

    Guys who have never caught a robber, fought a "real" criminal (no, not an escaping 15 yr old shoplifter), pointed a gun at someone, or "actually" fired a shot, sometimes talk a big game that diminishes under pressure. They have never seen "as usual".

    MTPD- these threads sometimes turn into personal attacks, but the guys who have verified experience are calling your advice into question. Your prob a good dude, but there are tons of folks reading this stuff thay take advice to heart...they haven't seen the little tricks, techniques, and tactics that are common place in the criminal mileau and may get caught in some sucker moves. Let's face it, anyone with any sense who is LE is going to advise a more conservative approach...they are liable for every round flying around and do not want someone living in their house (lawsuit).

    If you aren't sworn, your duty is to protect you @-- and love ones, beat a'll live longer. Pride kills.

    Just my .02
  18. snevel


    Aug 2, 2008
    And why on earth would a clerk in a 7-11 style store making barely minimum wage want to risk his life for maybe a couple hundred bucks an some smokes that aren't even his?

    Knowing how these corporations operate, if the clerk had actually managed to get a weapon into play (his own or one taken from the BG) he almost certainly would be fired for his trouble.

  19. Yes. My default position is compliance. It is not "meekly hand over money", it is not "hope for the best", it is not any of the usual distortions you bring up. It is intial compliance, just like is advised by all the professionals in the field. There is a reason for that.
    So your default position is to start a gunfight every time you get a good opportunity and hope it works out. Strange how that advice is rejected by most everyone else.
  20. Snevel, I don't think anyone reading this thread would say smokes and a few bills is worth the gunfight. The issue at hand is whether compliance will ultimately get you killed.

    That being said, the default advice that anyone in a position of expertise to the general public will be to comply simply because your audience is made up people with varying, mostly weak capabilities, i.e. sheeple. If the advice to the general public was to fight, I feel that would be a recipe for disaster. With this utilitarian advice, some vicitms/witnesses will be murdered here and there, but overall more lives will be saved.

    Now, if you have the training, the tools, and the timing, it's my belief that armed resistance is the way to go.

    Refuse to be a victim and know how not to be one.