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Reoccurring thought about good/bad shoot vs. unarmed suspect

Discussion in 'Carry Issues' started by GuitarSlinger66, Jan 22, 2012.

  1. GuitarSlinger66

    GuitarSlinger66

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    May 21, 2003
    I keep having these reoccurring thoughts about a good/bad shoot. Normally I wouldn't post - but... it's been eating my lunch. I live in Indiana (if that helps anyone). Maybe you can give some input, maybe not. Here's the (hypothetical) scenario:

    Road range incident - More than likely me trying to pass someone else and they get PO'ed and try and follow me. The reason isn't too important.

    Road rage leads to increase in adrenaline.

    I pull into parking lot - Mejier, gas station, etc. Didn't call 911 because I'm too busy driving - (manual transmission - plus obvious distraction from trying to evade).

    Other driver, (suspect), approaches me on foot - quickly. Obviously pissed, full of adrenaline and shouting - something along the lines of "I"m gonna f---- you up," "Let's settle this." "What the F---- do you think you're doing..." You get the picture.

    I open door, draw my CCW weapon, point it at him and command a "STOP!" He continues and I essentially shoot a (what appears to be) unarmed man behind cover. Do I have all the advantages? Yes. Isn't that the point?

    You can obviously modify the situation to other realistic incidents involving something as common as road rage. Another plausible scenario would be getting blocked in traffic and he approaches vehicle - or gets out in front of you - AS you are blocked in - leaving you only enough room to repeat the same scenario as at the "parking lot" = open door and barricade with weapon trained on him ready to fire.

    My main defense (and I'm not proud to admit)? I can't fight worth a ****. Most people can't and I really don't want to risk my life on it. Who knows what hypothetical suspect has on him or what he is on.

    Thoughts? Much appreciated!
     
  2. NEOH212

    NEOH212 Diesel Girl

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    Mar 25, 2008
    North East Ohio
    Scenario 1: You probably would be charged with murder for shooting a unarmed person.

    Scenario 2: Depending on the circumstances, this MAY be defensible depending on the circumstances. If your barricaded in the vehicle, and your NOT the aggressor, and the perp starts to come into the locked vehicle, then maybe. It would likely be more defensible if the perp had a weapon of sorts. I.E. tire iron, baseball bat, knife, gun, ect.

    I would try to get out of the situation. I don't know that I would draw my gun, but I would certainly have my hand on it out of view. Both of these scenarios have all the ingredients to land you in jail in a hurry. Be careful!

    Edited to add that if your blocked in traffic, that would be a really lousy place for a shoot out don't you think? If your left with no choice then you have to do what you have to do. You have to make the decision at that point in time if your life is in eminent danger or if your in danger of seriously bodily harm and weigh your options carefully.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2012

  3. Sam Spade

    Sam Spade Staff Member Lifetime Member

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    May 4, 2003
    It sounds like youre discovering that the gun isn't the one-size-fits-all magic tailsman that some think it to be. That's good; it's not. There's a huge sea of grey between the time to talk and the time to shoot. You need to learn to fill it.

    Neither the law nor decency require you to give up advantages or take a beating. What they *do* require is that you respond with force that is proportional to the threat you face.

    Time for more tools in the toolbox, bottom line and that simple.
     
  4. cowboy1964

    cowboy1964

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    My initial thought is if you open the door while someone is approaching you and you were obviously aware of ill intent by that person then that would come across to a jury as you looking for a confrontation, or at the very least not trying hard enough to avoid one.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2012
  5. xmanhockey7

    xmanhockey7

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    Dec 6, 2010
    Michigan
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoALOGnl76A"]Murder or Self Defense, You decide - YouTube[/ame]

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8W91EWQv4Fc"]Why You Need A Gun - YouTube[/ame]

    Both these videos show similar situations you are talking about.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2012
  6. GuitarSlinger66

    GuitarSlinger66

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    May 21, 2003
    Well again - if he continues coming towards me and I can't escape (running away isn't an option - turning your back to him are you crazy?!) - WHILE I have a gun drawn on him, isn't his intent obvious? If he puts his hands up and backs off - situation resolved and well go home. But as I mentioned, adrenaline is kicked in and this guy is nuts - and wants to kick my ass. God knows if he starts on me he'll probably win (anyone who wants to pick a fight probably has had more experience than me - someone who has never been in a proper fight).

    I'm sure this question of grey area has come up to many of you. And I'm sure many have wondered - well what if hedoes keep coming at me, even thought I'm pointing a gun at him. Will he attack me - unarmed as he appears, get my gun, and kill me?
     
  7. liberty addict

    liberty addict

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    Jun 17, 2005
    Oklahoma
    No question, if someone like that is coming at you even though you have a gun pointed at them, then they are very dangerous (OR they think you don't have what it takes to shoot them) --- if you do shoot you need to articulate why you felt your life was threatened. Someone who isn't afraid of a gun -- dangerous, go that way.
     
  8. dosei

    dosei

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    Mar 22, 2005
    Upstate SC
    Here is a fair bit of good info, take some time and listen to it all...

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qW_xaTf5oqI&list=PLEBB72502075AC476&feature=mh_lolz"]Massad Ayoob - Judicious Use of Force. Part [1] - YouTube[/ame]
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGJIyxm2s_M&feature=bf_next&list=PLEBB72502075AC476&lf=mh_lolz"]Massad Ayoob - Judicious Use of Force. Part [2] - YouTube[/ame]
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNCRL9SN2QA&feature=bf_next&list=PLEBB72502075AC476&lf=mh_lolz"]Massad Ayoob - Judicious Use of Force. Part [3] - YouTube[/ame]
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJazmbDH7S8&feature=bf_next&list=PLEBB72502075AC476&lf=mh_lolz"]Massad Ayoob - Judicious Use of Force. Part [4] - YouTube[/ame]

    Sam Spade nailed it, a gun is not the "one tool that fixes everything". It is one tool with a very, very narrow scope of use. For starters, get yourself set-up for hands-free calling.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2012
  9. heehaw

    heehaw

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    missouri
    It seems now days everyone is afraid to get their tail whipped. getting you butt kicked and getting killed are two different things. you gotta decided the level of threat and be prepared to respond. I put emphasis on being prepared. If you don't have any hand to hand combat skills, you better get some help.
     
  10. ATW525

    ATW525

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    Sep 17, 2006
    Concord, NH
    Unless you see a gun, why get out of the car at all? Lock the doors, roll up the windows and call 911. Unless you drive a convertible or something similar, you're reasonably safe from an unarmed man. If he retrieves a weapon, drive off if you can or do whatever else you need to do to stay safe if you can't.

    ETA: Of course, if you do see a gun and are blocked in, then get the freak out of the car! A stationary vehicle is a death trap when somebody is shooting at you.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2012
  11. GuitarSlinger66

    GuitarSlinger66

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    May 21, 2003
    Lots of good info. I'm tearing into the Ayoob videos.

    What I was essentially trying to extract a debate about was a hypothetical where I'm going about my business and someone approaches me is determined to mess me up - and my options list gets fairly short. I'm not talking about being robbed - I'd gladly give you my wallet at gunpoint.. Nor am I talking about home invasions. I'm talking about being approached with the intent to cause serious bodily harm - and my only real defense is deadly force. Think UFC fighter-looking guy coming at you wanting to kick your ass - and you're already armed. What do you think he's going to do? Permanent brain damage? End up in a wheelchair? Use your weapon against you?

    I'm not looking for a one-size fits all response - but just some alternative perspectives on this. I'm sure you can understand.

    Thanks again.
     
  12. Dexters

    Dexters

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    May 3, 2004
    ga
    Pepper Spray / Bear Spray - easy to have in your car.

    Options are a good thing.

    So is originality.
    Skip to 2:50
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upvZdVK913I"]the new sheriff scene from blazing saddles - YouTube[/ame]
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2012
  13. tc2129

    tc2129

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    May 2, 2005
    Northwest Florida
    Funny you posted this. I will post what happened just a few hours ago to me and my girlfriend.
    Just came down to Gainesville tonight for a doctors appointment in the morning my gf has at Shands. Checked into our hotel and decided to go get something to eat and grab some items at Wal-Mart.

    While leaving the hotel parking lot I noticed a guy on a scooter coming out of a gas station, didn't pay too much attention to him until he almost pulled out in front of me, he braked hard and almost tipped his scooter over. Again, didn't really think too much of it. I pull up to a red light at a busy intersection. My girlfriend asks me to spray the winshield because her side is dirty. As I am doing this, I notice his headlight coming up my right side. Again, didn't think anything about it. He pulls up to the light in front of me to make a right turn (I'm turning left) I do take notice when I see him put the kickstand down and get off the scooter. He then gets off the scooter and screams at us about purposely spraying him with the windshield sprayer. Lots of cussing, lots of threaths of violence. He starts approaching the passenger side of our vehicle and gets up to my GF's window.

    At this point, my hand goes on my .38 I have IWB. He gets up to the window, and my weapon comes out of the holster, but out of view of him. At this point he steps away from the window a few steps but continues to yell and curse. I don't know if my hand movement clued him in to what I was doing, but again, I never raised the weapon up to his view.

    I am unable to go foward because of the heavy traffic. He continues yelling how he is going to beat me and yelling for me to get out of the car. He steps back to his scooter, so I am thinking he is going to leave, but he gets back off the scooter and approaches the front of the car, raises his left leg and states he is going to kick my headlight out. I again tell him sorry, didn't purposely spray him, but he continues to curse and tell me to get out the car so he can "punch me in my mouth."
    I now hear another guy yelling from the sidewalk, so turn quickly to see another guy coming from across the street from the gas station. I'm thinking this might be his friend and am now looking to just run the red light and get out of this mess. This second guy was not a friend but just someone that heard the commotion and asked if he was Ok. I believe the second guy thought we were involved in an accident.
    After the second guy came to the sidewalk, the scooter driver went back to his scooter ,called me some choice words, and drove away.
    I waited for the light to finally turn green, which seemd like it took forever and went to dinner and discussed this whole thing with the gf. I never was able to get to my cellphone to call 911. One, it was in my left front jeans pocket, so I would have difficulty getting it out while seated, and two, I did not want to take my eyes off the guy at the passenger window.
    Things my GF and I discussed about this incident:
    Call 911 and report it. The whole thing took her by suprise because it happened so fast, so she didn't think to grab her phone while he was screaming. I couldn't get my phone right away. Should have called after the incident, I will if this ever occurs again.
    Don't escalate the incident, We only said sorry to him during this encounter. Kept the doors locked and never once thought of exiting the vehicle.
    Have a way out, we couldn't run the light or run him over, so we only could sit there until he left or the light changed
    Be prepared for an incident escalation- I kept the weapon out of sight, but was ready to employ it had he tried to enter the vehicle or break the window on my girlfriends side.
    Always have a weapon.

    Sorry this is so long, hope it makes sense. About the only thing I would do differently is call 911 as soon as this started or as soon as he drove off.
     
  14. ATW525

    ATW525

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    If a there is a considerable size difference, and/or you know that guy is a UFC fighter or somebody else with considerable ability to inflict physical harm, one can argue a disparity of force. Just remember that your actions will judged according to the reasonable person standard based on the information you had available to you at the time.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2012
  15. xmanhockey7

    xmanhockey7

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    As far as I'm concerned every person has a weapon and is a black belt in every martial art unless I know otherwise.
     
  16. TDC20

    TDC20

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    +1 There are plenty of small and effective OC sprays out there. If he's unarmed, and you can't leave, call 911 and sit back and wait for him to do something stupid, like break your window. Then give him a shot of pepper spray in the face. It's better than trying to beat a murder charge in court.
     
  17. NEOH212

    NEOH212 Diesel Girl

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    Mar 25, 2008
    North East Ohio

    Gee, I think a few more cops need to pile on top of that guy in the first video.

    Can we say, "OVER REACTION" :upeyes:

    Video 1. It looked like self defense to me and I'm glad to hear he was acquitted.

    Video 2. I would say the person in the car would have been justified to shoot when the jerk came to the driver side window with the tire iron.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2012
  18. jimski1510

    jimski1510

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    i'm not sure about this, check your laws where you live, but in florida we have the castle law & stand your ground. castle law protects you in your home , in your car, & a patio enclosed with roof over it & even a tent. so if someone trys to get in any of these enclosures you have the right to defend your self. like i said i'm not sure about this..... jim
     
  19. bustedknee

    bustedknee Curmudgeon

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    Aug 1, 2001
    Wythe County, VA
    JOHNNY CASH LYRICS

    "Don't Take Your Guns To Town"

    A young cowboy named Billy Joe grew restless on the farm
    A boy filled with wonderlust who really meant no harm
    He changed his clothes and shined his boots
    And combed his dark hair down
    And his mother cried as he walked out

    [Chorus]
    Don't take your guns to town son
    Leave your guns at home Bill
    Don't take your guns to town

    He laughed and kissed his mom
    And said your Billy Joe's a man
    I can shoot as quick and straight as anybody can
    But I wouldn't shoot without a cause
    I'd gun nobody down
    But she cried again as he rode away

    [Chorus]
    Don't take your guns to town son
    Leave your guns at home Bill
    Don't take your guns to town

    He sang a song as on he rode
    His guns hung at his hips
    He rode into a cattle town
    A smile upon his lips
    He stopped and walked into a bar
    And laid his money down
    But his mother's words echoed again

    [Chorus]
    Don't take your guns to town son
    Leave your guns at home Bill
    Don't take your guns to town

    He drank his first strong liquor then to calm his shaking hand
    And tried to tell himself he had become a man
    A dusty cowpoke at his side began to laugh him down
    And he heard again his mothers words

    [Chorus]
    Don't take your guns to town son
    Leave your guns at home Bill
    Don't take your guns to town

    Filled with rage then
    Billy Joe reached for his gun to draw
    But the stranger drew his gun and fired
    Before he even saw
    As Billy Joe fell to the floor
    The crowd all gathered 'round
    And wondered at his final words

    [Chorus]
    Don't take your guns to town son
    Leave your guns at home Bill
    Don't take your guns to town


    Carrying a gun ain't for everybody.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2012
  20. Bren

    Bren NRA Life Member

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    Jan 16, 2005
    Kentucky
    Does Indiana law allow you to bring a gun to a fist fight? I'm betting it doesn't. Generally you have to be facing a deadly force threat or, at the very least, a violent felony (in some castle doctrine states), not a misdemeanor punch in the nose. "I can't fight" is probably not going to give you an excuse to shoot.

    The law does not agree with you. The law can also send you to prison for the rest of your life, when it disagrees with you. Good luck.:upeyes:
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2012